Age of marriage as per quran

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
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Cassie
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Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by Cassie »

Ahmed Bahgat wrote:Idiot, if you read my whole refute on the exclusive forum you should read that I stated that Lam deny the present and the near past, i.e. the last time the action happened, I even give an exmaple of the breakfast you fool
So when was the last time the Muslim 'touched' his wife in this verse?

al-Baqarah 2:236
لاجناح عليكم ان طلقتم النساء مالم تمسوهن او تفرضوا لهن فريضة ومتعوهن على الموسع قدره وعلى المقتر قدره متاعا بالمعروف حقا على المحسنين

La junaha AAalaykum in tallaqtumu alnnisaa ma lam tamassoohunna aw tafridoo lahunna fareedatan wamattiAAoohunna AAala almoosiAAi qadaruhu waAAala almuqtiri qadaruhu mataAAan bialmaAAroofi haqqan AAala almuhsineena

No offense/guilt/sin (is) on you if you divorced the women as long as you did not touch them (F), or specify/stipulate for them (F) a specification/stipulation (dowry) , and give them (F) alimony on the enriched/rich, his capability , and on the tight/restricted (poor) his capability alimony with the kindness/generosity , dutifully/deservedly/rightfully on the good doers .

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Aksel Ankersen
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Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

AchmedBadhat wrote:
Aksel Ankersen wrote:Okay let's clear this up for the readers.

مَاْ is a multi-purpose word. It can be either a relative pronoun meaning "that" or "which" or "what". Or مَاْ can be a particle of negation.

However مَاْ can certainly be used to deny in the present or past tense (probably the future -- I will look for examples).

Here is the Penrice dictionary entry on Ma (I've outlined the important bit):

Image

-A Dictionary and Glossary of the Qur'an By John Penrice, page 209

Note the example of Sura Yusuf verse 31:

فلما سمعت بمكرهن ارسلت اليهن واعتدت لهن متكئا واتت كل واحدة منهن سكينا وقالت اخرج عليهن فلما راينه اكبرنه وقطعن ايديهن وقلن حاش لله
ماهذا بشرا ان هذا الا ملك كريم

When she heard their sly whispers, she sent to them, and made ready for them a repast, then she gave to each one of them a knife. 'Come forth, attend to them,' she said. And when they saw him, they so admired him that they cut their hands, saying, 'God save us! This is no mortal; he is no other but a noble angel.'
See? In the quoted speech by the guests مَاْ was used for negation of the present tense. They said: "This is no mortal"
Hahahahah, I have that dictionary in my hand you fool, look again at what you write in red,

Ma HAZA

HAZA is not a verb you fool, it is a NOUN

Can you believe this guy? His original claim was that ma (مَاْ) can only negate past tense, when I give proof that it is used to negate the present tense he tries to divert topic with the red-herring of negating noun versus verb. I can prove him wrong about that as well, but I have no time to waste on this buffoon.

You are shoved back in the CCCLD wing
Ahmed Asshat. You have no power to shove ME into anything - only in your fantasy cyber world do you have power.
بدرود , بدرود , بدرود

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AhmedBahgat
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Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by AhmedBahgat »

Ahmed chose again to reply to the itchy aussie pof and CCCLD inmate, arsekel:
Aksel Ankersen wrote:Can you believe this guy? His original claim was that ma (مَاْ) can only negate past tense, when I give proof that it is used to negate the present tense he tries to divert topic with the red-herring of negating noun versus verb. I can prove him wrong about that as well, but I have no time to waste on this buffoon.[/color]
You are shoved back in the CCCLD wing
Ahmed Asshat. You have no power to shove ME into anything - only in your fantasy cyber world do you have power.
Listen you itchy pof

According to grammar, it should not however the Quran defies the Arabic grammar, and that is why I accepted it, if the evidence was from a dictionary it would have been dismissed

At least I am a man who shamelessly concede his mistakes when it comes to the Quran, this is because the Quran overwrites what I say, it is not the other way around, therefore, my Quran bluinder was not the first nor it will be the last, and believe me it makes me soldify my Quran knowledge better than most.

On the other hand, we have seen the total freak and low octane hell fuel like Khalil being caught red handed in a very stupid mistake yet he refuses to admit his blunder, this only means one thing, that my blunder was an honest mistake, while his was a deliberate mistake to confuse the ignorant goons like you

Finally, you are the last one to talk Arabic you fool, you know nothing about it, at least conman khalil knows the letters and numbers

back to the wing you lowest of the lows of the CCCLDers

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Cassie
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Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by Cassie »

And yet you shamelessly ignore the fact that Julian Charteris used the Quran to prove you wrong about 'lam', Ahmed.

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Aksel Ankersen
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Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

AhmedBahgat wrote:(...Long winded, irrelevant, bitter rant...)
Let's just stop talking to each other. We are only messing up the thread and wasting time.
بدرود , بدرود , بدرود

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AhmedBahgat
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Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by AhmedBahgat »

Ahmed chose agin to reply to the aussie itchy pof arsekel:
Aksel Ankersen wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:(...Long winded, irrelevant, bitter rant...)
Let's just stop talking to each other. We are only messing up the thread and wasting time.
Then say it to yourself you confused and deluded freak, it is you who stalks me

back to the wing you jerk, do it one more time and I will put you in a solitary confinment for 6 months

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Aksel Ankersen
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Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

AhmedBahgat wrote:Then say it to yourself you confused and deluded freak, it is you who stalks me
Okay, rest assured I will not respond to any more of your threads or posts.

Now f.ck off
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AhmedBahgat
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Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by AhmedBahgat »

Ahmed chose again to reply to the CCCLD inmate, arsekel
Aksel Ankersen wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:Then say it to yourself you confused and deluded freak, it is you who stalks me
Okay, rest assured I will not respond to any more of your threads or posts.

Now f.ck off

Great, however that does not mean that I will ignore your crap you low enemy of Islam bound to hell, all your comments will be monitored and the moment you say crap about the Quran, the same moement you will be exposed

back to the wing, you pof

Pragmatist
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Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by Pragmatist »

AhmedBahgat wrote:Ahmed chose again to reply to the CCCLD inmate, arsekel
Aksel Ankersen wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:Then say it to yourself you confused and deluded freak, it is you who stalks me
Okay, rest assured I will not respond to any more of your threads or posts.

Now f.ck off

Great, however that does not mean that I will ignore your crap you low enemy of Islam bound to hell, all your comments will be monitored and the moment you say crap about the Quran, the same moement you will be exposed

back to the wing, you pof
The koran is a book of hate and war written by a perverted thief and warlord called Mohammad. In an attempt to make it seem legitimate this moron stole large tracts of work from Jewish and Christian sources but in the main he got them terribly wrong. This Narcissists solution once his errors became known was to say the other books had been corrupted but his koran was the only real uncorrupted word of his satanic moon god allah. But he failed to explain how the mighty allah could protect the koran but was unable to protect his previous books the OT and the Jewish scripture very strange indeed. The koran far from being a book of peace or religion is a garbled dislocated mish mash full of misogyny, hate, peadophilia justifications, anti semitism and calls to war. It cannot be understood we are told unless you read it in the primitive , ambiguous arabic dialect in which it was written. This arabic racist elitism means that the koran cannot be as it claims for itself a 'book for all men for all time' and 'clear and easily understood' and indeed Mohammedans have not yet in 1400 years got a universally approved translation of it. Due largely to the fact of course that parts of the koran are completely untranslatable and to the ambiguous nature of the primitive language in which it is written.
Last edited by Pragmatist on Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
Does a God create you simply to punish you in Hellfire well PREDESTINATING evil, illogical, sadistic allah DOES.

parvez mushtaq
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Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by parvez mushtaq »

KhaliL FarieL wrote:
parvez mushtaq wrote:
There is still a problem because "Yahidh" is in present tense while "Lam" is negation in past tense. The prefix "YA" to the root word "Haidh" and the suffix "NA" makes the real mess here for translators and Muslims especially. The word is used in third person while being feminine plural. I am focusing on the suffix "NA" for the very reason. Literally the prefix "NA" does not stand for "YET" But without adding yet in the translation, it would be tricky to bring out a coherent sentence in English from the phrase. Or let our Ahmed Bahgat try and come up.

KhaliL
you got it correct haik

it is in the present tense

so it must be

HAVE NOT MENSTRUATED
So, it means all your past and current Mufassirs went wrong in assessing the phrase in Quran but YOU got it right? What about dealing the Mufassirs' explanations on it? I am not the one written all of them. They are your authentic scholars who studied Quran in light of several hadiths and other sources for years and years and came up with their Tafsirs. Do you want to disregard them all?

All Mufassirs ranging from Ibn Abbas of the era of Muhammad to Abul Aala Maududi of current times explained the phrase "Lam yahidhna" denotes "Those females who have not reached puberty". What makes you disregard YOUR most authentic Mufassirs' explanation and come up with your convoluted one?

IXOLITE offered you a Sahih Hadith. I post it again for your kind revision:

Narrated Sahl bin Sad: While we were sitting in the company of the Prophet a woman came to him and presented herself (for marriage) to him. The Prophet looked at her, lowering his eyes and raising them, but did not give a reply. One of his companions said, "Marry her to me O Allah's Apostle!" The Prophet asked (him), "Have you got anything?" He said, "I have got nothing." The Prophet said, "Not even an iron ring?" He Sad, "Not even an iron ring, but I will tear my garment into two halves and give her one half and keep the other half." The Prophet; said, "No. Do you know some of the Quran (by heart)?" He said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "Go, I have agreed to marry her to you with what you know of the Qur'an (as her Mahr)." 'And for those who have no courses (i.e. they are still immature). (65.4) And the 'Iddat for the girl before puberty is three months (in the above Verse). [Sahih Bukhari. Book: 62, Hadith:63

I don't have time to deal with your amateurishness man. You made all a mess in our previous encounter on "Islam & adultery" and had to leave the thread humiliated. Don't strive for more humiliation, your Islam is indefensible. More you try to make sense of it, deeper your fall will be. So, wake up and smell the coffee. Once you break the shackles, there is a wonderful world out waiting for you.

You will not get to the allurement of freedom until you experience it. There is freedom outside your religion. All you have to do is shed your irrational fear for hell and obsession for high bosomed virgins. Can't you do it?

Regards
KhaliL
dear infidels

i think your lam problem has finally has come to end

let me give the finishing touch to this

haik, i said you are correct when you said
There is still a problem because "Yahidh" is in present tense while "Lam" is negation in past tense. The prefix "YA" to the root word "Haidh" and the suffix "NA" makes the real mess here for translators and Muslims especially.
but the problem is you want to add 'yet' TO THIS

lets see how and when yet have been added in quran

first take surah 38 verse 8

أَءُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ الذِّكْرُ مِنْ بَيْنِنَا بَلْ هُمْ فِي شَكٍّ مِنْ ذِكْرِي بَلْ لَمَّا يَذُوقُوا عَذَابِ

so lamma , lam+ma , ma stands for yet here

so do the translation of yusuf ali

038.008
YUSUFALI: "What! has the Message been sent to him - (Of all persons) among us?"...but they are in doubt concerning My (Own) Message! Nay, they have not yet tasted My Punishment!

again in surah 49 verse 14

قَالَتِ الْأَعْرَابُ آَمَنَّا قُلْ لَمْ تُؤْمِنُوا وَلَكِنْ قُولُوا أَسْلَمْنَا وَلَمَّا يَدْخُلِ الْإِيمَانُ فِي قُلُوبِكُمْ وَإِنْ تُطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ لَا يَلِتْكُمْ مِنْ أَعْمَالِكُمْ شَيْئًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ
again here lamma

and translation of

49.014
YUSUFALI: The desert Arabs say, "We believe." Say, "Ye have no faith; but ye (only)say, 'We have submitted our wills to Allah,' For not yet has Faith entered your hearts. But if ye obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not belittle aught of your deeds: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
PICKTHAL: The wandering Arabs say: We believe. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Ye believe not, but rather say "We submit," for the faith hath not yet entered into your hearts. Yet, if ye obey Allah and His messenger, He will not withhold from you aught of (the reward of) your deeds. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

so yet is to be add in the case of lamma

but mosin khan has used this word more frequently to for wau

as in surah 43 verse 15
وَجَعَلُوا لَهُ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ جُزْءًا إِنَّ الْإِنْسَانَ لَكَفُورٌ مُبِينٌ

its translation is

Yet they assign to some of His slaves a share with Him (by pretending that He has children, and considering them as equals or co-partners in worship with Him). Verily, man is indeed a manifest ingrate!

provided the meaning doesn't change

and even sahih international has done as mohsin khan but they used this is brackets some times as in
surah 21 verse 93

وَتَقَطَّعُوا أَمْرَهُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ كُلٌّ إِلَيْنَا رَاجِعُونَ


its translation being

And [yet] they divided their affair among themselves, [but] all to Us will return


but all this translations have one thing in common regarding this ayah and they have not used "yet"

their translation are as follows

065.004
YUSUFALI: Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.
PICKTHAL: And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him.

sahih international 65-4
And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

mohsin khan
65-4. And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah , if you have doubts , is three months, and for those who have no courses . And for those who are pregnant , their 'Iddah is until they deliver , and whosoever fears Allâh and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. ore

now , their is no lamma as well as wau in this ayah

and moreover if you add "yet" here this changes the meaning as well

so the bottom line is YOU CANNOT ADD YET

SO , AS IN SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
IT WILL READ AS

THOSE WHO HAVE NOT MENSTRUATED

meaning to say that , young women who were menstruating but have not menstruated for the past 40 days(for example)

rest of your post is gibberish haik

with regards

Mushtaq

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Cassie
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Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by Cassie »

Rubbish, parvez. The same word 'lam' is used in 2-236. Are you saying that in that verse the Muslim had 'touched' his wife before but not in the last 40 days? Try being honest for a change.

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KhaliL
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Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by KhaliL »

_________________

Dear Parvez Mushtaq,

I respect you for one reason. And that reason is you are much embarrassed on knowing the fact your holy text sponsors paedophilia. It would be more than bearable for you as a Muslim ignorant of his sources. My article was not bringing anything new. The matter was already discussed by various Muslim and non-Muslim scholars to reach on a consensus; marrying prepubescent girls and having sex with them is a practice sanctioned by Quran.

Now, I will respond your input. Again only for the reason you tried very hard to make sense of your Quran. But the truth should not necessarily be pleasant all the times. And the truth about your Quran is very bitter, but you have to accept it since you consider it your holy book.
parvez mushtaq wrote:

dear infidels

i think your lam problem has finally has come to end

let me give the finishing touch to this

haik, i said you are correct when you said
There is still a problem because "Yahidh" is in present tense while "Lam" is negation in past tense. The prefix "YA" to the root word "Haidh" and the suffix "NA" makes the real mess here for translators and Muslims especially.
but the problem is you want to add 'yet' TO THIS

lets see how and when yet have been added in quran

first take surah 38 verse 8

أَءُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ الذِّكْرُ مِنْ بَيْنِنَا بَلْ هُمْ فِي شَكٍّ مِنْ ذِكْرِي بَلْ لَمَّا يَذُوقُوا عَذَابِ

so lamma , lam+ma , ma stands for yet here
Extracting some verses from Quran just to meet your purpose is not going to work my contester. In fact, I have dealt this issue much elaborately in the previous forum where Ahmed Bahgat’ pet BMZ, the professional troll had appeared in three nicks in a vain attempt to discredit me. I am just extracting from my previous posts and follow carefully:

I am using Quran to explain Quran. And if you need Tafsirs of the past or contemporary, I can bring them too. But when Quran alone is sufficient for me, I will reserve Tafsirs for a later time. Now, here Quran vs Quran. I like this mode because it leaves no chance at all for Muslims to escape. Here it goes. Quran:

It is no sin for you if ye divorce women while ye have not yet touched them, nor appointed unto them a portion. Provide for them, the rich according to his means, and the straitened according to his means, a fair provision. (This is) a bounden duty for those who do good.

La junaha AAalaykum in tallaqtumu alnnisaa ma lam tamassoohunna aw tafridoo lahunna fareedatan wamattiAAoohunna AAala almoosiAAi qadaruhu waAAala almuqtiri qadaruhu mataAAan bialmaAAroofi haqqan AAala almuhsineena

لاَّ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ إِن طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاء مَا لَمْ تَمَسُّوهُنُّ أَوْ تَفْرِضُواْ لَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً وَمَتِّعُوهُنَّ عَلَى الْمُوسِعِ قَدَرُهُ وَعَلَى الْمُقْتِرِ قَدْرُهُ مَتَاعًا بِالْمَعْرُوفِ حَقًّا عَلَى الْمُحْسِنِينَ
[Quran 2:236]


Again focus on the bolded part in transliteration and Arabic. It reads “Lam Tamassoohunna” = “Not yet touched”. Don’t forget the phrase we are discussing, “Lam Yahidhna”..!!

Knowing of the verses will make it clearer. This is of divorcing women and god of Quran says there is no sin to divorce a woman whom the husband has not yet touched. Don’t forget Quran was revealed to Muhammad and he is reciting this verse to his followers in a specific context. It is like saying “You folks, there is no problem for you to divorce your wives if you haven’t touched them yet” The phrase used is “Lam Thamassoohunna” very similar to “Lam Yahidhna”.

Again:

They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah. And with regard to those left behind, who have not yet joined them (in their bliss), the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve

Fariheena bima atahumu Allahu min fadlihi wayastabshiroona biallatheena lam yalhaqoo bihim min khalfihim alla khawfun AAalayhim wala hum yahzanoona

فَرِحِينَ بِمَا آتَاهُمُ اللّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَيَسْتَبْشِرُونَ بِالَّذِينَ لَمْ يَلْحَقُواْ بِهِم مِّنْ خَلْفِهِمْ أَلاَّ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ
[ Quran 3:170]


See the bolded again. “Lam Yalhaqoo” = “Not yet joined” and again don’t forget the phrase under trial here. It is “Lam Yahidhna” = “Not yet menstruated”

So, this is Quran. I am using Quran to interpret Quran. I am using Muslims’ source to refute Muslims’ claims. There is no way for Muslims to escape at all because; all comes from Quran and Quran alone.

So what Parvez Mushtaq, I chop off the verses and translation you brought to defend the indefensible. They are refuted by the verses I brought in above. Now, I will focus on the relevant part of your post:

(And I would add a request if you don’t mind. There is no need to oversize letters to prove something. We do not have any comprehension problems, so that just posting what you want to post in normal mode is enough. And if you want to emphasize something, just bold and highlight it. Doing so would be enough and it is the scholarly way to put things)
parvez mushtaq wrote:
but all this translations have one thing in common regarding this ayah and they have not used "yet"

their translation are as follows

065.004
YUSUFALI: Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.
PICKTHAL: And for such of your women as despair of menstruation, if ye doubt, their period (of waiting) shall be three months, along with those who have it not. And for those with child, their period shall be till they bring forth their burden. And whosoever keepeth his duty to Allah, He maketh his course easy for him.

sahih international 65-4
And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.

mohsin khan
65-4. And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the 'Iddah , if you have doubts , is three months, and for those who have no courses . And for those who are pregnant , their 'Iddah is until they deliver , and whosoever fears Allâh and keeps his duty to Him, He will make his matter easy for him. ore

now , their is no lamma as well as wau in this ayah

and moreover if you add "yet" here this changes the meaning as well

so the bottom line is YOU CANNOT ADD YET
The first question coming into my mind is “so what?”

Even if I concur to the translations above, is it a big deal that there is no “YET” in those?

Think of it. I will once again show you similarities from your Quran to the phrase “Lam Yahidhna” so that its meaning will be more pronounced. Note here, I am using Quran to explain Quran, so you can not accuse me of misquoting or manipulating. See:

Therein are those of modest gaze, whom neither man nor jinn will have touched before them,

“Feehinna Qasiratu Al Tarfi Lam Yatmith’hunna Insun Qablahum wala Jann”

فِيهِنَّ قَاصِرَاتُ الطَّرْفِ لَمْ يَطْمِثْهُنَّ إِنسٌ قَبْلَهُمْ وَلَا جَانٌّ
[Quran 55:56]


See the bolded “Lam Yatmis’hunna” in the transliteration and Arabic. It is similar phrase to “Lam Yahidna” the similarity is observable.

Now, what does this Quranic verse means? It means god of Quran has prepared a brothel for his pious believers in hereafter where they are going to get virgin women whom neither humans nor djinns have touched yet. The term is “Lam yatmis’hunna” Not yet got touched” Similarly the term “Lam yahidna” too means “Not yet menstruated”

Your Quran, the verse starts “Wallaee Yaisna mina al-maheedhi” = Those who are despaired of menses. This group consists menopausal women and women who past their age of menstruation, but didn’t have it yet. It talks of a psychological state of desperation. Honey… a menopausal women should not be despaired of her menstruation because she knows it has stopped. But a woman who passed the pubertal stage and didn’t have her period will by all means be in despair. So, the phrase should be consisting two groups at least. Clear?

Next, “Wallaee lam yahidna” Those who haven’t got menstruated yet; I proved this means pre-pubescent girls. Because apart from menopausal and the other group of women I mentioned above, there remains two categories of women. Pre-Pubescent and pregnant. This phrase denotes pre-pubescent girls because pregnant women comes after this phrase as “waolatu al-ahmali”.

Clear?

You can not escape from this Parvez Mushtaq. It is a fact that Quran endorses paedophilia. There is not a single verse in Quran you can quote to negate my assertion. In my article, I not only explained the verses from an independent framework, I also quoted your most authentic Mufassirs ranging from Ibn Abbas the staunchest follower of Muhammad and a great Quran commentator to the late Saudi Mufti, Al-Utaymeen. All have made it clear beyond any shadow of doubt that Quran chapter 65 verses 4 stipulates Iddah waiting period for prepubescent girls who have not reached the stage of menstruation.
parvez mushtaq wrote: SO , AS IN SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
IT WILL READ AS

THOSE WHO HAVE NOT MENSTRUATED

meaning to say that , young women who were menstruating but have not menstruated for the past 40 days(for example)

rest of your post is gibberish haik
This made me chuckle. Where is your evidences to suggest the phrase “Lam Yahidhna” = “Those who have not menstruated” means young women who are menstruating but not having it for the past 40 days or so? Are you making stuffs out of thin air? I will ask you once again: Of the ten or more Mufassirs I quoted in my article, not one is concordant to your version, but all have stated the group of females mentioned in the phrase “Lam Yahidna” are girls who are too young and have not reached the age of menstruation. If girls are not reached the age of menstruation and do not menstruate likewise, what makes you come up with this most anomalistic version? Can you quote me any prominent Mufassirs who will corroborate to your weird definition and interpretation?

And finally: commenting on my post as gibberish will not make facts fade away. I am bringing facts out of your Quran and as long as your Quran remains they will hang around. You can not make them disappear with made up excuses.

Regards and think again and again whether it is apt for a person like you to defend a text which is blatantly endorsing such an abominable practice as paedophilia.

KhaliL

yeezevee
Posts: 6547
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by yeezevee »

That is plain..simple and fantastic response on the STUPID RULES Mr. Muhammad erected for Marriage dear Khalil. Indeed it is very clear from scriptures, actions and preachings of Mullahs That "Islam does permit marrying and having sex with little girls as young as 9 and in some cases toddlers.

I was stunned to see this video of Ghada Jamshir from Beharan
Image

It was stunning to watch the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyIYKqMQLBs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

any way I would appreciate if you could translate the verse and explain a bit on the ayah 33.56

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=100&p=5653#p5653" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


with best wishes
yeezevee

User avatar
KhaliL
Posts: 1052
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:12 am

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by KhaliL »

yeezevee wrote: any way I would appreciate if you could translate the verse and explain a bit on the ayah 33.56

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=100&p=5653#p5653" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


with best wishes
yeezevee
Hi yeezevee,

The verse 33:56 is reflective of Muhammad's narcissistic personality disorder as he claims “Verily Allah along with his angels eulogizes him so all believers should praise Muhammad likewise”. In fact I had a debate on the same issue with our Ahmed Bahgat in the old forum. I will link you to my posts in that thread so that you can follow it where the matter is discussed elaborately.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 35#1084035" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 49#1084149" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 22#1084222" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you click the first link and follow from thereon, that would be better.

Hope this helps and regards
KhaliL

parvez mushtaq
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 8:06 am

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by parvez mushtaq »

dear haik
I respect you for one reason. And that reason is you are much embarrassed on knowing the fact your holy text sponsors paedophilia. It would be more than bearable for you as a Muslim ignorant of his sources. My article was not bringing anything new. The matter was already discussed by various Muslim and non-Muslim scholars to reach on a consensus; marrying prepubescent girls and having sex with them is a practice sanctioned by Quran.
I agree , and I am not blind or deaf , there are lots of Muslims right know who will give the example of prophet Mohammed (pbuh) to justify this ayah
This type of accusation will result in oneness of ummah and that is why I am taking all pains
A day is nearing when Muslims will be one by YOU PEOPLE AND NOT BY THEM SELF
This will teach Muslims who say we should take all sahih hadiths immaterial of quran taken into consideration
Now, I will respond your input. Again only for the reason you tried very hard to make sense of your Quran. But the truth should not necessarily be pleasant all the times. And the truth about your Quran is very bitter, but you have to accept it since you consider it your holy book.
This I disagree with you, once you know the essence of quran , you will start believing in GOD
ONLY BOOK ON THE FACE OF THIS PLANET WHICH GIVES THE PROOF OF GOD IS QURAN
Muslims are yet to attain this , because lots of sahih hadiths hinder quran
But , I am not totally against all hadiths , they are just historical references and to be taken into account only and only if the agree with quran
So we cannot delete all hadiths (immaterial of their authenticity) at the same time we cannot accept all hadiths
Extracting some verses from Quran just to meet your purpose is not going to work my contester. In fact, I have dealt this issue much elaborately in the previous forum where Ahmed Bahgat’ pet BMZ, the professional troll had appeared in three nicks in a vain attempt to discredit me. I am just extracting from my previous posts and follow carefully:
No haik, pl again read my post, translators have added “yet” on condition that “yet” will not change the meaning
I am using Quran to explain Quran. And if you need Tafsirs of the past or contemporary, I can bring them too. But when Quran alone is sufficient for me, I will reserve Tafsirs for a later time. Now, here Quran vs Quran. I like this mode because it leaves no chance at all for Muslims to escape. Here it goes. Quran:

It is no sin for you if ye divorce women while ye have not yet touched them, nor appointed unto them a portion. Provide for them, the rich according to his means, and the straitened according to his means, a fair provision. (This is) a bounden duty for those who do good.

La junaha AAalaykum in tallaqtumu alnnisaa ma lam tamassoohunna aw tafridoo lahunna fareedatan wamattiAAoohunna AAala almoosiAAi qadaruhu waAAala almuqtiri qadaruhu mataAAan bialmaAAroofi haqqan AAala almuhsineena

لاَّ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْكُمْ إِن طَلَّقْتُمُ النِّسَاء مَا لَمْ تَمَسُّوهُنُّ أَوْ تَفْرِضُواْ لَهُنَّ فَرِيضَةً وَمَتِّعُوهُنَّ عَلَى الْمُوسِعِ قَدَرُهُ وَعَلَى الْمُقْتِرِ قَدْرُهُ مَتَاعًا بِالْمَعْرُوفِ حَقًّا عَلَى الْمُحْسِنِينَ
[Quran 2:236]

Again focus on the bolded part in transliteration and Arabic. It reads “Lam Tamassoohunna” = “Not yet touched”. Don’t forget the phrase we are discussing, “Lam Yahidhna”..!!

Knowing of the verses will make it clearer. This is of divorcing women and god of Quran says there is no sin to divorce a woman whom the husband has not yet touched. Don’t forget Quran was revealed to Muhammad and he is reciting this verse to his followers in a specific context. It is like saying “You folks, there is no problem for you to divorce your wives if you haven’t touched them yet” The phrase used is “Lam Thamassoohunna” very similar to “Lam Yahidhna”.

Again:

They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah. And with regard to those left behind, who have not yet joined them (in their bliss), the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve

Fariheena bima atahumu Allahu min fadlihi wayastabshiroona biallatheena lam yalhaqoo bihim min khalfihim alla khawfun AAalayhim wala hum yahzanoona

فَرِحِينَ بِمَا آتَاهُمُ اللّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ وَيَسْتَبْشِرُونَ بِالَّذِينَ لَمْ يَلْحَقُواْ بِهِم مِّنْ خَلْفِهِمْ أَلاَّ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ
[ Quran 3:170]
See again , whether you add “yet” or you don’t ,meaning remains the same

For example , the translation of sahih international reads without “yet”

2-236
There is no blame upon you if you divorce women you have not touched nor specified for them an obligation. But give them [a gift of] compensation - the wealthy according to his capability and the poor according to his capability - a provision according to what is acceptable, a duty upon the doers of good.

Again in the case of 3-170 , mohsin khan has used brackets

170. They rejoice in what Allâh has bestowed upon them of His Bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve.

And PICKTHAL did not used “yet”

PICKTHAL: Jubilant (are they) because of that which Allah hath bestowed upon them of His bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not joined them but are left behind: That there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

Meaning to say that, they have used “yet” only if meaning doesn’t change , but is case of lamma , they have used “yet”
See the bolded again. “Lam Yalhaqoo” = “Not yet joined” and again don’t forget the phrase under trial here. It is “Lam Yahidhna” = “Not yet menstruated”

So, this is Quran. I am using Quran to interpret Quran. I am using Muslims’ source to refute Muslims’ claims. There is no way for Muslims to escape at all because; all comes from Quran and Quran alone.

So what Parvez Mushtaq, I chop off the verses and translation you brought to defend the indefensible. They are refuted by the verses I brought in above. Now, I will focus on the relevant part of your post:
But here, “yet” changes the meaning , so no one was dared to add “yet” , see this is the beauty of quran , even if they see it is wrong or correct they don’t dare to add or subtract any thing
(And I would add a request if you don’t mind. There is no need to oversize letters to prove something. We do not have any comprehension problems, so that just posting what you want to post in normal mode is enough. And if you want to emphasize something, just bold and highlight it. Doing so would be enough and it is the scholarly way to put things)
OK
The first question coming into my mind is “so what?”

Even if I concur to the translations above, is it a big deal that there is no “YET” in those?

Think of it. I will once again show you similarities from your Quran to the phrase “Lam Yahidhna” so that its meaning will be more pronounced. Note here, I am using Quran to explain Quran, so you can not accuse me of misquoting or manipulating.
Once again, haik, let me put this way, once a man touches a female, gone, she is not a virgin, so if you add “yet” or not , that makes no difference
Likewise, one a women starts menstruating, gone, she becomes a women
So adding “yet” makes a world of difference here and that is why it was not added “yet”
Your Quran, the verse starts “Wallaee Yaisna mina al-maheedhi” = Those who are despaired of menses. This group consists menopausal women and women who past their age of menstruation, but didn’t have it yet. It talks of a psychological state of desperation. Honey… a menopausal women should not be despaired of her menstruation because she knows it has stopped. But a woman who passed the pubertal stage and didn’t have her period will by all means be in despair. So, the phrase should be consisting two groups at least. Clear?
Thanks haik, this what I wanted to talk next about , and that is why I asked you in the beginning about the reference of your tafsirs
Now, “desperate” is not the translation of YAISNA, it is despair , so loss of hope
Meaning that, women who lost their hope of menstruation
In other words, menopause

That is what all the translators have agreed upon

So this category never accommodates our case of POCS
Next, “Wallaee lam yahidna” Those who haven’t got menstruated yet; I proved this means pre-pubescent girls. Because apart from menopausal and the other group of women I mentioned above, there remains two categories of women. Pre-Pubescent and pregnant. This phrase denotes pre-pubescent girls because pregnant women comes after this phrase as “waolatu al-ahmali”.
Again “yet” , if and only if you add YET , you will get this meaning other wise this is the clear case of PCOS
Clear?

You can not escape from this Parvez Mushtaq. It is a fact that Quran endorses paedophilia. There is not a single verse in Quran you can quote to negate my assertion. In my article, I not only explained the verses from an independent framework, I also quoted your most authentic Mufassirs ranging from Ibn Abbas the staunchest follower of Muhammad and a great Quran commentator to the late Saudi Mufti, Al-Utaymeen. All have made it clear beyond any shadow of doubt that Quran chapter 65 verses 4 stipulates Iddah waiting period for prepubescent girls who have not reached the stage of menstruation.
Haik, I have already given you the verse which negates your assertion, verse 58 of surah noor

As far as , tafsirs , even that I have provided you haik

"O Allah's Messenger! Some women were not mentioned in the Qur'an, the young, the old and the pregnant.'' Allah the Exalted and Most Honored sent down this Ayah,

There are still some women whose `Iddah has not been mentioned in the Qur'an. There are the young, the old whose menstruation is discontinued, and the pregnant.' Later on, this Ayah was revealed,

This I think your pride has made to ignore, haik
This made me chuckle. Where is your evidences to suggest the phrase “Lam Yahidhna” = “Those who have not menstruated” means young women who are menstruating but not having it for the past 40 days or so? Are you making stuffs out of thin air? I will ask you once again: Of the ten or more Mufassirs I quoted in my article, not one is concordant to your version, but all have stated the group of females mentioned in the phrase “Lam Yahidna” are girls who are too young and have not reached the age of menstruation. If girls are not reached the age of menstruation and do not menstruate likewise, what makes you come up with this most anomalistic version? Can you quote me any prominent Mufassirs who will corroborate to your weird definition and interpretation?
I am perfectly on target , haik, I am well within the tafsir

with regards

Mushtaq

User avatar
Cassie
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Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by Cassie »

Parvez,
Why are you hung up on the English word, "yet"? It's a red herring you're employing. Translation is not necessarily word for word since Arabic and English words are not 100% equivalent. Read 2-236 - where lam is used to convey the meaning 'never before.' The same can be argued for 3-170. lam here means "never before".

Did the Muslim 'touch' his wife before in 2-236? Has he ever touched his wife? If you were honest you'd answer that.

You could say lam yahidna means 'not menstruated yet', or 'never menstruated before,' in English.

parvez mushtaq wrote:I am well within the tafsir
??? Are you sure?

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=65&tid=54196
The `Iddah of Those in Menopause and Those Who do not have Menses

Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause.
Who are these young girls who have not reached the year of menstruation?

yeezevee
Posts: 6547
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by yeezevee »

Hi yeezevee,

The verse 33:56 is reflective of Muhammad's narcissistic personality disorder as he claims “Verily Allah along with his angels eulogizes him so all believers should praise Muhammad likewise”. In fact I had a debate on the same issue with our Ahmed Bahgat in the old forum......

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 35#1084035

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 49#1084149

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 22#1084222
That fellow is INCAPABLE of debating and learning + teaching dear Haik.., Haik's post at http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 49#1084149 says on that 33.56
has been made obligatory to Allah as the verses we find in Quran is:

ان الله وملائكته يصلون على النبي ياايها الذين امنوا صلوا عليه وسلموا تسليما
Quran 33:56 Surely Allah and his angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe! Call for (divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming) salutation. [End of Shakir Translation]
I brought Shakir, because you seem to accept Shakir wholeheartedly. (Does it have anything to do with regionalism )

Well, focus on the bolded part. It says INNA and Shakir translated it almost right as surely- certainly. Why this emphasis? It implies something obligatory, and here it is Allah who comes after “INNA = Innallah” Definitely Allah along with his angels extols the prophet…! That is not the end as verse continues Allah the almighty commands all believers to praise and salute the prophet likewise. Allah has been ensnared so believers too should get locked in the same predicament. That’s Allah’s logic. The phrase INNA and the command we see in the verse makes this praising compulsory for Allah as he can’t escape from his own words.

Then you brought verses to prove Muhammad has been ordered to praise all believers. All right, but how does this let Allah off the hook? Muhammad has been commanded to convey many things to his believers. That’s not the issue I am propping up. See it in my post, as my contention is praising or lauding the prophet Muhammad has been obligatory for Allah since he asserts in Quran “Surely Allah and his angels extol Muhammad”
It is true(that is what I was thinking before) that in this ayah "Allah /God Salutes Mr. Muhammad.. Mr. PBUH" .. I wonder, To that Arabic word which people translate as "Salute" .. what other English words would would an Arabic speaker uses in place "Salute"...

God Salutes Man...God, the God.. The supreme super force that controols everything and anything in ths Universe Salutes man...God Salutes my man.. Idiots writing nonsense..

Ha!... my man ..Mr. PBUH. Foolish writers.... what a religion..

with best wishes
yeezevee

yeezevee
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Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by yeezevee »

Once again, haik, let me put this way, once a man touches a female, gone, she is not a virgin, so if you add “yet” or not , that makes no difference
Likewise, one a women starts menstruating, gone, she becomes a women
So adding “yet” makes a world of difference here and that is why it was not added “yet” .. says Parvez
what kind of language and what kind of English is that dear Parvez?? You sound like a high school kid.,

Yes.. 9 year old is menstruating.. So she is ready for 53 year old man.. She is ready to become a barefoot & pregnant baby producing factory..

yeezevee

User avatar
KhaliL
Posts: 1052
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Parvez.. You should be honest enough..!!

Post by KhaliL »

__________________

parvez mushtaq wrote:I agree , and I am not blind or deaf , there are lots of Muslims right know who will give the example of prophet Mohammed (pbuh) to justify this ayah
That means? Your prophet married a six year old girl and had SEX with the girl when she reached nine years of age. You can not find it in your Quran but this abominable practice of your prophet is attested by Quran. That is all what Quran chapter 65 verses 4 about. So, both Quran and your prophet’s Sunna condones paedophilia. Next?
parvez mushtaq wrote:This type of accusation will result in oneness of ummah and that is why I am taking all pains
A day is nearing when Muslims will be one by YOU PEOPLE AND NOT BY THEM SELF
This will teach Muslims who say we should take all sahih hadiths immaterial of quran taken into consideration
This oneness of your Muslim Ummah or even an Ummah is an illusion my boy. There never was a perfect Ummah in Islam. In case no Mullah has told you, Muhammad could not establish an Ummah in perfect sense. Soon after his death, the whole of central Arabia apostatized because Muslims who adhered to Muhammad found no fun in continuing in Islam after Muhammad’s death. It was not faith that made them glued to Islam but was material gains in the form of war booties and women. Once Muhammad left, they thought everything is over and soon deserted Islam. Your first Caliph Abu Bakr armed up against Muslim apostates and those wars are called Riddah (apostasy) wars which lasted over a year. The wars were bloody and the penurious Caliph of Islam had to smite Muslim necks in order to stabilize matters.

After that..? Do you know who killed Othman the third Caliph of Islam? It was Abu Bakr-the first Caliph’s son Muhammad who killed Othman. And he was a Muslim.

Again, do you know who killed Husain-the grandson of your prophet? He met a most brutal death by Muslims’ hands who even denied him water before beheading him after tying him up in the sun for a whole day. The killers were Muslims.

Again, Aisha-the child bride of Muhammad who along with Abu Huraira narrated most of the hadiths armed up against Ali-the fourth Caliph of Islam. The war known as Camel war brought twenty thousand Muslim deaths and not a single among the dead were slain by infidels. It was Muslims on both sides fighting each other to bring this casualty. Just think of it. Twenty thousand deaths in seventh century Arabia is equal to two million deaths in this era given the fact of world population now. And who caused it? None other than one of your mothers of believers and your fourth rightly guided caliph Ali..! You can not blame a single infidel intervention in this war and the eventual horrid casualties.

So, honey… if they failed; do you think you guys can bring up an Ummah? A perfect Ummah which only existed in illusions? Can you show me a juncture in the history of Islam where you guys stopped killing each other? Can you show me at any time, there existed a perfect Islamic system? Just once?

Oneness of Muslims..? Are you kidding me?

Islam is full of blood and it can not exist without shedding blood. You know all those warriors of Badr –the first battle your Muhammad fought were killed in Civil war? All were killed by Muslims NOT by infidels. Let me ask why? If Islam was a perfect system, why it could not even save the grandson of its prophet? Why it could not save those holy warriors who fought the first full-scale battle for its cause?

I feel like asking again and again: Did you guys ever stop killing each other? Muhammad said his contemporary are the best Muslims. And we see the real bloodbath in which Muslims killing Muslims right after Muhammad breathing his last.

Tell me dear Muslim? Muhammad said “if a Muslim fights with a Muslim, both will go to hell” He said abusing a Muslim is fusuq and killing him is Kufr. [Sahih Bukhari. Book 3, Hadith:122]

Can you tell me where should your mother Aisha be according to Muhammad? Where can be Ali the fourth Caliph? Both are in hell or? Are they both Kafirs because they fought each other and killed TWENTY thousand Muslims. Not one two three…..

Would you please clear this up for me before being flagrant on your one and only Ummah?
parvez mushtaq wrote:This I disagree with you, once you know the essence of quran , you will start believing in GOD
Don’t worry. I know your Quran much much much better than you do. That is why I can smash Muslim arguments quite easily. And don’t worry over I am not getting into the essence of Quran. I learnt it from Salafi and Sufi perspectives. And I believed like you; there is a god. But that was in my past.

I learnt a lot and for the purpose I read a lot other than Quran too. That is why you have an apostate speaking to you. Chweech…
parvez mushtaq wrote:ONLY BOOK ON THE FACE OF THIS PLANET WHICH GIVES THE PROOF OF GOD IS QURAN
Huh.. what a confident statement in shouting capital letters..??!! Boy…, I told you of the etiquettes of communicating. If you use capital letters for the entire sentence, that is denotative of shouting. What makes you shouting? Are you not sure Quran is a sufficient proof for the existence of Allah? What makes you holler?

How do you know Allah is god? Well, it is said in Quran. But what makes Quran authority to speak of god? Your answer will be Quran is the word of god.

Now, if I ask evidence for it?

You will say, it is said in Quran.

Darn… Is this the proof you are talking about? Do you know of circular reasoning?
parvez mushtaq wrote:Muslims are yet to attain this , because lots of sahih hadiths hinder quran
But , I am not totally against all hadiths , they are just historical references and to be taken into account only and only if the agree with quran
Don’t worry Parvez, this is the beginning. Doubts begin like this. First you will doubt of some hadiths, then that doubt will grow to discard all hadiths because since you have some humaneness left in you, that would be enough for you to discard all hadiths because you can not stand their stupidity. After that..? Well, you will be left with Quran only.

Well, dear Muslim, from Quran only to NO QURAN is a small step. You have started to doubt. Good I would say. Keep up and stay with us more. I can sense a potential apostate in you; that may not happen overnight, but take it from me; you can not glue with this stupid system for long. I say this because Islam does not deserve your time. You have tremendous potentials and all it takes to unleash them is to break the shackles of Islam. If you stay with us more, I am sure you will do it yourself. No other influence will be necessary in your case. I am confident.

parvez mushtaq wrote:No haik, pl again read my post, translators have added “yet” on condition that “yet” will not change the meaning
I am not dead on a term “YET”. I made it clear in many posts. I was just making the correct translation. And if this “yet” bothers you a lot, discard it. I have no problem but what difference does it make? You say “Yet” will not change the meaning. All right, go without yet. So what?
parvez mushtaq wrote:See again , whether you add “yet” or you don’t ,meaning remains the same

For example , the translation of sahih international reads without “yet”

2-236
There is no blame upon you if you divorce women you have not touched nor specified for them an obligation. But give them [a gift of] compensation - the wealthy according to his capability and the poor according to his capability - a provision according to what is acceptable, a duty upon the doers of good.

Again in the case of 3-170 , mohsin khan has used brackets

170. They rejoice in what Allâh has bestowed upon them of His Bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve.

And PICKTHAL did not used “yet”

PICKTHAL: Jubilant (are they) because of that which Allah hath bestowed upon them of His bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not joined them but are left behind: That there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

Meaning to say that, they have used “yet” only if meaning doesn’t change , but is case of lamma , they have used “yet”
No big deal if you are not comfortable with yet. I am not going to use it again. But, your point..? We are discussing of a phrase in Quran and its possible translations in English. I will not use “Yet” if that would make you happy. Now can you come to the point?
parvez mushtaq wrote:But here, “yet” changes the meaning , so no one was dared to add “yet” , see this is the beauty of quran , even if they see it is wrong or correct they don’t dare to add or subtract any thing
Forget about it. I am happy without “YET”. Okay? Now what do you say? Oh… beauty of Quran…! Well, Quran is very beautiful because there are high bosomed beautiful virgins and pearly boys in it. Allah the author of Quran has graphically portrayed a stunning brothel in it. How can I say it is not beautiful?

Quran is beautiful and sexy. Sexier than Angelina Jolie’s lips. Are you happy now? :tongueout:
parvez mushtaq wrote:Once again, haik, let me put this way, once a man touches a female, gone, she is not a virgin, so if you add “yet” or not , that makes no difference
Likewise, one a women starts menstruating, gone, she becomes a women
So adding “yet” makes a world of difference here and that is why it was not added “yet”
Huh… once a man touches a female, everything is gone and she is no longer a virgin? Where should man touch to this miracle to happen? :lol:

Anyway, if a girl is having her periods in her childhood, I mean when she is either nine or ten year old, does that mean she became a fully matured woman? How come? Do you know what does maturity mean? I bet you do not. Maturity means acquiring both physical and psychological phases of maturity. A nine year old girl can not be a woman just because she starts to discharge at that age. It is your dirty Islamic definition. No sane person will agree to it.

Still, what is the big deal? We are discussing of a verse in Quran which says “Those females who have not menstruated”. Aren’t we?
parvez mushtaq wrote:Thanks haik, this what I wanted to talk next about , and that is why I asked you in the beginning about the reference of your tafsirs
Now, “desperate” is not the translation of YAISNA, it is despair , so loss of hope
Meaning that, women who lost their hope of menstruation
In other words, menopause

That is what all the translators have agreed upon
So this category never accommodates our case of POCS
Okay move on. But please bear with my ignorance. If what you mean by POCS is females who fail to menstruate even after passing the normal age stage, that group of females are covered in the phrase “Yaisna min al-maheedhi”. I said it in my post. Yaisna = desperate. It is not a noun as you want it to be. Anyway move on and let me see what more anomalies are there you have to discharge.
parvez mushtaq wrote:Again “yet” , if and only if you add YET , you will get this meaning other wise this is the clear case of PCOS
How? Can you elaborate a little? “Those who have not menstruated” is the translation if I remove “yet” from it. How does this denote very clear case o f PCOS? Is it your finding or are there more with you who helped you to embark on this remarkable finding?
parvez mushtaq wrote:Haik, I have already given you the verse which negates your assertion, verse 58 of surah noor

As far as , tafsirs , even that I have provided you haik

"O Allah's Messenger! Some women were not mentioned in the Qur'an, the young, the old and the pregnant.'' Allah the Exalted and Most Honored sent down this Ayah,

There are still some women whose `Iddah has not been mentioned in the Qur'an. There are the young, the old whose menstruation is discontinued, and the pregnant.' Later on, this Ayah was revealed,
This I think your pride has made to ignore, haik
Boy…, play this tricks to any retarded Mulla. Where do you pull off this Tafsir from?

“Young females who have not menstruated” means what? can you enlighten us again?

Do not play tricks; This is FFI and nobody will be buying your fake commodities here. See what the late Mufti Ibn Utaymeen says on the Ayat 65:4:

If a woman does not menstruate, either because she is very young or old and past menopause, then her ‘iddah is three months, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
And those of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the ‘Iddah (prescribed period), if you have doubt (about their periods), is three months; and for those who have no courses [(i.e. they are still immature) their ‘Iddah (prescribed period) is three months likewise[Quran. Surah al-Talaaq 65:4]


Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen, Majmoo’at As’ilah tahumm al-Usrah al-Muslimah, p. 61-63.
Source

And if you want a classic, more authentic Mufassir, here is Ibn Kathir:

Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. 2:228). The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. [Ibn Kathir on Quran 65:4]Source

You may defend your cult but be honest while presenting sources. Lying between your teeth is not a good habit for you to get accustomed to at this young age.
parvez mushtaq wrote:I am perfectly on target , haik, I am well within the tafsir
You are nowhere near target let alone near perfect; don’t forget I challenged you to bring a single verse, a single piece from any authentic Tafsir which refutes my contention Quran sanctions paedophilia = marrying and having sex with prepubescent girls. Can you meet my challenge?

If not, better stay mute and do not come up with your made up excuses. I am with your Quran and authentic sources. And unlike you, I never make things up for any agenda.

But you do. That is why you are shamelessly misquoting Tafsirs and claiming you are with them. If you want to be with Quran and its authentic Tafsirs, you must be with those reeking Mullas of Saudi Arabia who recently issued a Fatwa based on Quran “Marrying prepubescent girls is sanctioned in Islam”
However stinky, those retards are honest to admit the fact in Quran.

Regards and if you come up, be honest enough. Do not be delusional. Facts are not going to fade just because you manage to seduce them.

KhaliL
Last edited by KhaliL on Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aksel Ankersen
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Re: Age of marriage as per quran

Post by Aksel Ankersen »

Cassie wrote:Parvez,
Why are you hung up on the English word, "yet"? It's a red herring you're employing. Translation is not necessarily word for word since Arabic and English words are not 100% equivalent. Read 2-236 - where lam is used to convey the meaning 'never before.' The same can be argued for 3-170. lam here means "never before".

Did the Muslim 'touch' his wife before in 2-236? Has he ever touched his wife? If you were honest you'd answer that.
The same can be said for Sura an-Nur verse 13:


لولا جاؤوا عليه باربعة شهداء فاذ لم ياتوا بالشهداء فاولئك عند الله هم الكاذبون


لولا = “if only”
جاؤوا = “come”
عليه = “thereon”
باربعة = “four”
شهداء = “witnesses”

~~~~ “Why did they not bring four witnesses?”~~~~

فاذ = “so then”
لم = *negation of the past tense*

ياتوا = “they bring”
بال = prefix meaning “in the”
شهداء = “witnesses”
فاولئك = “so those”
عند = “with”
الله = “Allah”
هم = “they (are)”
الكاذبون = “liars”

~~~~ “Since they did not bring forth witnesses, those (accusers) are liars in the sight of Allah” ~~~~

Sura an-Nur ayahs 11-17 are a recount of the slander of Aysha by `Abdullah bin Ubayy bin Salul and co. (click here for relevant hadith).

The accusers are liars because they did not bring forth four witnesses. Lam must equal negation in the past tense as anything else would not make sense here.

Note that we don't need a word like "yet" to understand that the accusers never brought proof.

Neither do we need a particle such as "yet" to understand that those (wives) who haven't had courses are prepubescent.
بدرود , بدرود , بدرود

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