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Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:03 am
by AhmedBahgat
Ahmed Choise to expose the CCCLD inmate arsekel:

Aksel Ankersen wrote:
Cassie wrote:Parvez,
Why are you hung up on the English word, "yet"? It's a red herring you're employing. Translation is not necessarily word for word since Arabic and English words are not 100% equivalent. Read 2-236 - where lam is used to convey the meaning 'never before.' The same can be argued for 3-170. lam here means "never before".

Did the Muslim 'touch' his wife before in 2-236? Has he ever touched his wife? If you were honest you'd answer that.

The same can be said for Sura an-Nur verse 13:


لولا جاؤوا عليه باربعة شهداء فاذ لم ياتوا بالشهداء فاولئك عند الله هم الكاذبون


لولا = “if only”
جاؤوا = “come”
عليه = “thereon”
باربعة = “four”
شهداء = “witnesses”

~~~~ “Why did they not bring four witnesses?”~~~~

فاذ = “so then”
لم = *negation of the past tense*

ياتوا = “they bring”
بال = prefix meaning “in the”
شهداء = “witnesses”
فاولئك = “so those”
عند = “with”
الله = “Allah”
هم = “they (are)”
الكاذبون = “liars”

~~~~ “Since they did not bring forth witnesses, those (accusers) are liars in the sight of Allah” ~~~~

Sura an-Nur ayahs 11-17 are a recount of the slander of Aysha by `Abdullah bin Ubayy bin Salul and co. (click here for relevant hadith).

The accusers are liars because they did not bring forth four witnesses. Lam must equal negation in the past tense as anything else would not make sense here.

Note that we don't need a word like "yet" to understand that the accusers never brought proof.

Neither do we need a particle such as "yet" to understand that those (wives) who haven't had courses are prepubescent.


The same mistake you commited before you fool, you forgot the word IZ which is a negation of a future event of not bringing 4 witnesses, and as you can see you ignornat that Lam is used in a future event to negate denial to the present action at such future event

Fa Iz Lam Ya'atu

back to the mental section of the CCCLD, you criminal

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:44 am
by Aksel Ankersen
:cool: :roflmao:

Re: Parvez.. You should be honest enough..!!

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:03 am
by parvez mushtaq
dear haik

That means? Your prophet married a six year old girl and had SEX with the girl when she reached nine years of age. You can not find it in your Quran but this abominable practice of your prophet is attested by Quran. That is all what Quran chapter 65 verses 4 about. So, both Quran and your prophet’s Sunna condones paedophilia. Next?


wow , i amazed by the way you cook your own curry , you have started misinterpreting even my post , hiak
good

now read the same post

i said ,

I agree , and I am not blind or deaf , there are lots of Muslims right know who will give the example of prophet Mohammed (pbuh) to justify this ayah
This type of accusation will result in oneness of ummah and that is why I am taking all pains
A day is nearing when Muslims will be one by YOU PEOPLE AND NOT BY THEM SELF
This will teach Muslims who say we should take all sahih hadiths immaterial of quran taken into consideration


which is true , even if you ask any Muslim , but you spilted and made out your own curry with one line and the rest you cooked some other curry
lol
amazing haik
but i enjoyed it
lovely

parvez mushtaq wrote:This type of accusation will result in oneness of ummah and that is why I am taking all pains
A day is nearing when Muslims will be one by YOU PEOPLE AND NOT BY THEM SELF
This will teach Muslims who say we should take all sahih hadiths immaterial of quran taken into consideration


This oneness of your Muslim Ummah or even an Ummah is an illusion my boy. There never was a perfect Ummah in Islam. In case no Mullah has told you, Muhammad could not establish an Ummah in perfect sense. Soon after his death, the whole of central Arabia apostatized because Muslims who adhered to Muhammad found no fun in continuing in Islam after Muhammad’s death. It was not faith that made them glued to Islam but was material gains in the form of war booties and women. Once Muhammad left, they thought everything is over and soon deserted Islam. Your first Caliph Abu Bakr armed up against Muslim apostates and those wars are called Riddah (apostasy) wars which lasted over a year. The wars were bloody and the penurious Caliph of Islam had to smite Muslim necks in order to stabilize matters.

After that..? Do you know who killed Othman the third Caliph of Islam? It was Abu Bakr-the first Caliph’s son Muhammad who killed Othman. And he was a Muslim.

Again, do you know who killed Husain-the grandson of your prophet? He met a most brutal death by Muslims’ hands who even denied him water before beheading him after tying him up in the sun for a whole day. The killers were Muslims.

Again, Aisha-the child bride of Muhammad who along with Abu Huraira narrated most of the hadiths armed up against Ali-the fourth Caliph of Islam. The war known as Camel war brought twenty thousand Muslim deaths and not a single among the dead were slain by infidels. It was Muslims on both sides fighting each other to bring this casualty. Just think of it. Twenty thousand deaths in seventh century Arabia is equal to two million deaths in this era given the fact of world population now. And who caused it? None other than one of your mothers of believers and your fourth rightly guided caliph Ali..! You can not blame a single infidel intervention in this war and the eventual horrid casualties.

So, honey… if they failed; do you think you guys can bring up an Ummah? A perfect Ummah which only existed in illusions? Can you show me a juncture in the history of Islam where you guys stopped killing each other? Can you show me at any time, there existed a perfect Islamic system? Just once?

Oneness of Muslims..? Are you kidding me?

Islam is full of blood and it can not exist without shedding blood. You know all those warriors of Badr –the first battle your Muhammad fought were killed in Civil war? All were killed by Muslims NOT by infidels. Let me ask why? If Islam was a perfect system, why it could not even save the grandson of its prophet? Why it could not save those holy warriors who fought the first full-scale battle for its cause?

I feel like asking again and again: Did you guys ever stop killing each other? Muhammad said his contemporary are the best Muslims. And we see the real bloodbath in which Muslims killing Muslims right after Muhammad breathing his last.

Tell me dear Muslim? Muhammad said “if a Muslim fights with a Muslim, both will go to hell” He said abusing a Muslim is fusuq and killing him is Kufr. [Sahih Bukhari. Book 3, Hadith:122]

Can you tell me where should your mother Aisha be according to Muhammad? Where can be Ali the fourth Caliph? Both are in hell or? Are they both Kafirs because they fought each other and killed TWENTY thousand Muslims. Not one two three…..

Would you please clear this up for me before being flagrant on your one and only Ummah?

parvez mushtaq wrote:This I disagree with you, once you know the essence of quran , you will start believing in GOD


Don’t worry. I know your Quran much much much better than you do. That is why I can smash Muslim arguments quite easily. And don’t worry over I am not getting into the essence of Quran. I learnt it from Salafi and Sufi perspectives. And I believed like you; there is a god. But that was in my past.

I learnt a lot and for the purpose I read a lot other than Quran too. That is why you have an apostate speaking to you. Chweech…

haik, dont give a sermon , i know all this and this is not the place to discuss this , lets not divert to other topic
if you are over worked , take a vacation
this is the sign of stress , haik

parvez mushtaq wrote:ONLY BOOK ON THE FACE OF THIS PLANET WHICH GIVES THE PROOF OF GOD IS QURAN


Huh.. what a confident statement in shouting capital letters..??!! Boy…, I told you of the etiquettes of communicating. If you use capital letters for the entire sentence, that is denotative of shouting. What makes you shouting? Are you not sure Quran is a sufficient proof for the existence of Allah? What makes you holler?

How do you know Allah is god? Well, it is said in Quran. But what makes Quran authority to speak of god? Your answer will be Quran is the word of god.

Now, if I ask evidence for it?

You will say, it is said in Quran.

Darn… Is this the proof you are talking about? Do you know of circular reasoning?


parvez mushtaq wrote:Muslims are yet to attain this , because lots of sahih hadiths hinder quran
But , I am not totally against all hadiths , they are just historical references and to be taken into account only and only if the agree with quran


Don’t worry Parvez, this is the beginning. Doubts begin like this. First you will doubt of some hadiths, then that doubt will grow to discard all hadiths because since you have some humaneness left in you, that would be enough for you to discard all hadiths because you can not stand their stupidity. After that..? Well, you will be left with Quran only.

Well, dear Muslim, from Quran only to NO QURAN is a small step. You have started to doubt. Good I would say. Keep up and stay with us more. I can sense a potential apostate in you; that may not happen overnight, but take it from me; you can not glue with this stupid system for long. I say this because Islam does not deserve your time. You have tremendous potentials and all it takes to unleash them is to break the shackles of Islam. If you stay with us more, I am sure you will do it yourself. No other influence will be necessary in your case. I am confident.



"convince" do you know haik, i like this word "convince" but i like it when i use it not when some one is using on me
you have started giving a sermon on behalf of christians and atheists haik, great you will become zakir naik for this circle , and my advance congratulations haik

Is it your finding or are there more with you who helped you to embark on this remarkable finding?


do you know the difference between me and you , haik
this is not my bread and butter , but this seems to be yours
and you are in a very dangerous profession of playing with faith and you are making your faith is stake by doing this
what ever i type , this is from my heart , i have none to answer but the almighty
i am not bounded by any one
but , you need a ONE SPARK , AND THAT SPARK WILL IGNITE YOUR EMOTIONS , AND THAT EMOTION WILL RISE A WAVE OF TSUNAMI in your heart , that day you will start writing by your heart and YOU WILL BE BY MY SIDE AND NOT IN MY OPPOSITE
BTW , lets see what you are offering in the place of Islam
atheism ?
oh. you mean NO GOD , NO RULES , SO ENJOY !
lol, are you talking about the faith which says , TAKE YOU MOTHER WITH YOUR DAUGHTER TO BED AND ENJOY
or men as s is better than female , so take men instead of female and make a fight with swords (here i mean sword of flesh) lol on the bed
is this is you are offering me instead of Islam

or

you want me to believe that i a inferior to jews and a dog waiting under the table of jews waiting for a bread a piece of bread to fall
or
you want me to believe , that god send his son to the earth to who ate every thing on the earth and gave his holy Manure to the earth making it fertile and there by making the streams holy by washing his holy ...lol

this is what you are offering me instead of Islam

see what Islam says about me haik

003.110
YUSUFALI: Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.


http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=O2tvEMbCj-U
M U S L I M , I AM SO BLESSED TO BE WITH THEM , HEAR THIS SONG BY NATIVE DEEN ,
lovely song , hope you will like it , haik
hope this will make you cool , haik

and of course , i been helped , you are correct here , i am not alone as you are
do you really want to know who is that , really , haik..do you want to know... really ...
really ..
...really ..
ALLAH
any problem , haik

i told you haik, never try me once again

i may give that spark to you cos .......

I AM A M U S L I M

so dare not give me a sermon again , dear haik

with regards

Mushtaq

rest i will post in a separate post if possible today or definitely tomorrow

Re: Parvez.. You should be honest enough..!!

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:21 am
by AhmedBahgat
parvez mushtaq wrote:dear haik
wow , i amazed by the way you cook your own curry , you have started misinterpreting even my post , hiak
good

now read the same post

i said ,

I agree , and I am not blind or deaf , there are lots of Muslims right know who will give the example of prophet Mohammed (pbuh) to justify this ayah
This type of accusation will result in oneness of ummah and that is why I am taking all pains
A day is nearing when Muslims will be one by YOU PEOPLE AND NOT BY THEM SELF
This will teach Muslims who say we should take all sahih hadiths immaterial of quran taken into consideration


which is true , even if you ask any Muslim , but you spilted and made out your own curry with one line and the rest you cooked some other curry
lol
amazing haik
but i enjoyed it
lovely


Salam brother Pervez,

What you may not know about such guy that you are dealling with, is this:

Haik Monsieur wrote:Do you know about manipulating? I am a manipulator if you want to know. And I manipulate nothing else but your holy book.


Haik Monsieur wrote:We in FFI have a schema and to accomplish it, I can’t let your arguments win.


Haik Monsieur wrote:After all, have you had a serene moment in your recent life to think what is FFI aiming for? Idiot; we never concealed our aim. Our aim is to destroy Islam.


Therefore, what he did with you is expected from such shameless kafir

I suggest the best way to deal with such decievers is to dismiss them and save every second of your preciouos time

Cheers

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:18 pm
by Cassie
2-236 has no Iz. Lam Tamasoo means that the Muslim had NEVER touched his wife, just like lam yahidna means the girl had NEVER menstruated.

Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:52 pm
by parvez mushtaq
…….I was just making the correct translation…..


This is not the correct translation haik, rather , it is a translation as per your needs

……. And if this “yet” bothers you a lot, discard it. I have no problem but what difference does it make? You say “Yet” will not change the meaning. All right, go without yet. So what?....


Wow , again a ROYAL acceptance of defeat , lol
So , there is on “yet” finally
That is why I said you are saying not from you’re heart

No big deal if you are not comfortable with yet. I am not going to use it again. But, your point..? We are discussing of a phrase in Quran and its possible translations in English. I will not use “Yet” if that would make you happy. Now can you come to the point?


VERY HAPPY , haik :)

Forget about it. I am happy without “YET”. Okay? Now what do you say? Oh… beauty of Quran…! Well, Quran is very beautiful because there are high bosomed beautiful virgins and pearly boys in it. Allah the author of Quran has graphically portrayed a stunning brothel in it. How can I say it is not beautiful?

Quran is beautiful and sexy. Sexier than Angelina Jolie’s lips. Are you happy now?


I am happy, you are happy, we both are happy :) :)
I will be happier if you tell me more about Angelina

Anyway, if a girl is having her periods in her childhood, I mean when she is either nine or ten year old, does that mean she became a fully matured woman? How come? Do you know what does maturity mean? I bet you do not. Maturity means acquiring both physical and psychological phases of maturity. A nine year old girl can not be a woman just because she starts to discharge at that age. It is your dirty Islamic definition. No sane person will agree to it.

Still, what is the big deal? We are discussing of a verse in Quran which says “Those females who have not menstruated”. Aren’t we?


Yes of course haik, but I will be happy once you read the title of this thread

Okay move on. But please bear with my ignorance. If what you mean by POCS is females who fail to menstruate



This are the few points about PCOS we had to bother about

http://www.youngwomenshealth.org/pcosinfo.html

PCOS is a common problem among teen girls and young women. In fact, almost 1 out of 10 women has PCOS. This guide was created to help you understand PCOS by answering the most commonly asked questions.

What is PCOS?

Polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) is a hormone imbalance that can cause irregular periods, unwanted hair growth, and acne. PCOS begins during a girl’s teen years and can be mild or severe.

What are the signs of PCOS?


Teen girls and young women with PCOS commonly have one or more signs. Some of the most common signs include:
Irregular periods - periods that come every few months, not at all, or too frequently
• Extra hair on your face or other parts of your body, called hirsutism (her-suit-is-em)
• Acne
• Weight gain and/or trouble losing weight
• Patches of dark skin on the back of your neck and other areas, called acanthosis nigricans (a-can-tho-sis ni-gri-cans)

And I don’t know how come you become so ignorant about this problem, and you claim you are at the age of my father

I have seen minimum three female in my life who are closely related to me has this problem

Seems selective ignorance, lol

Boy…, play this tricks to any retarded Mulla. Where do you pull off this Tafsir from?

“Young females who have not menstruated” means what? can you enlighten us again?


Do you still want to explain me about this tafsir after reading about PCOS , haik

You may defend your cult but be honest while presenting sources. Lying between your teeth is not a good habit for you to get accustomed to at this young age.


I don’t need to be, haik
And I don’t know the crooked way, I am honest man

You are nowhere near target let alone near perfect; don’t forget I challenged you to bring a single verse, a single piece from any authentic Tafsir which refutes my contention Quran sanctions paedophilia = marrying and having sex with prepubescent girls. Can you meet my challenge?


Do you have this challenged still , haik

Ok

Lets see that tafsir again

"O Allah's Messenger! Some women were not mentioned in the Qur'an, the young, the old and the pregnant.'' Allah the Exalted and Most Honored sent down this Ayah,

There are still some women whose `Iddah has not been mentioned in the Qur'an. There are the young, the old whose menstruation is discontinued, and the pregnant.' Later on, this Ayah was revealed,
This I think your pride has made to ignore, haik

now tell me who are this "THOSE WHO HAVE NOT MENSTRUATED "

THAT IS , THOSE YOUNG WOMEN WHO WERE MENSURATING BUT NOT HAVE MENSTUREATED FOR 2 MOTHHS (FOR EXAMPLE) BECAUSE OF PCOS ,

DON’T YOU THINK I AM ON TARGET HAIK


With regards

Mushtaq

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:58 pm
by parvez mushtaq
Salam brother Pervez,

What you may not know about such guy that you are dealling with, is this:

Haik Monsieur wrote:Do you know about manipulating? I am a manipulator if you want to know. And I manipulate nothing else but your holy book.


Haik Monsieur wrote:We in FFI have a schema and to accomplish it, I can’t let your arguments win.


Haik Monsieur wrote:After all, have you had a serene moment in your recent life to think what is FFI aiming for? Idiot; we never concealed our aim. Our aim is to destroy Islam.


Therefore, what he did with you is expected from such shameless kafir

I suggest the best way to deal with such decievers is to dismiss them and save every second of your preciouos time

Cheers


w/salam Ahmed
i know , they are

but tell me brother , if you see a blocked sewage in your house , will go remain quite

do you expect kafirs will clean this sewage

it must be Muslims , and every Muslim has this responsibility

don't worry , i have seen lots of this type of people , they cannot touch me any way with their manipulation

jazak ALLAH

Mushtaq

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:00 pm
by Cassie
Lam yahidna cannot be referring to girls suffering from PCOS because they have menstruated before. Lam Yahidna means 'NEVER MENSTRUATED' just like in 2-236 the Muslim NEVER touched his wife.

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:02 pm
by parvez mushtaq
Cassie wrote:Lam yahidna cannot be referring to girls suffering from PCOS because they have menstruated before. Lam Yahidna means 'NEVER MENSTRUATED' just like in 2-236 the Muslim NEVER touched his wife.

dear cassie

pl read my post again , i have answered this dear

With regards

Mushtaq

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:04 pm
by Cassie
parvez mushtaq wrote:
Cassie wrote:Lam yahidna cannot be referring to girls suffering from PCOS because they have menstruated before. Lam Yahidna means 'NEVER MENSTRUATED' just like in 2-236 the Muslim NEVER touched his wife.

dear cassie

pl read my post again , i have answered this dear

With regards

Mushtaq

How did you answer my post? By ignoring 2-236. Show us how in 2-236 a Muslim can possible have touched his wife before? Remember that a Muslimah who has been 'touched' must observe iddah.

Go on. Let's talk this over. Picking a possible cause of primary amenorrhea ain't going to get your pedophile off the hook.

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:01 am
by Aksel Ankersen
Cassie wrote:2-236 has no Iz.

Hello Cassie

Iz is a sentence connector with a usage aproximating that of the English "then" i.e. Fa'iz is used to point to consequences arising from causes ("then" as in "in that case").

It is entirely possible to use Iz to indicate case and cause in the past tense. An example from the Arabic Bible:

فاذ علم بالنعمة المعطاة لي يعقوب وصفا ويوحنا المعتبرون انهم اعمدة اعطوني وبرنابا يمين الشركة لنكون نحن للامم واما هم فللختان


"and when they perceived the grace that was given unto me, James and Cephas (Peter) and John, they who were reputed to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship, that we should go unto the Gentiles, and they unto the circumcision;" -2 Galatians 9

And that's all related in the past tense.

Indeed all Koranic translators render Iz in 24:13 and 24:16 as past tense.

Regards

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:13 am
by Aksel Ankersen
Parvez Mushtaq wrote:What are the signs of PCOS?

Teen girls and young women with PCOS commonly have one or more signs. Some of the most common signs include:
• Irregular periods - periods that come every few months, not at all, or too frequently

Hello Parvez

The Koran clearly states they have not menstruated, and gives no minimum age for those females.

Although some teens with PCOS or indeed women with CAIS may not have periods, they are among the minority of alla-ee lam yahidna.

The obvious meaning of girls who have not menstruated is prepubescent children... you're reading a meaning of disease into this verse where none is mentioned.

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:20 pm
by Connedbymo+co
Why are the muslims avoiding the point Cassie is making? :sly:

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:41 am
by parvez mushtaq
Cassie wrote:
parvez mushtaq wrote:
Cassie wrote:Lam yahidna cannot be referring to girls suffering from PCOS because they have menstruated before. Lam Yahidna means 'NEVER MENSTRUATED' just like in 2-236 the Muslim NEVER touched his wife.

dear cassie

pl read my post again , i have answered this dear

With regards

Mushtaq

How did you answer my post? By ignoring 2-236. Show us how in 2-236 a Muslim can possible have touched his wife before? Remember that a Muslimah who has been 'touched' must observe iddah.

Go on. Let's talk this over. Picking a possible cause of primary amenorrhea ain't going to get your pedophile off the hook.


dear cassie

you were absolutely correct when you said

....Translation is not necessarily word for word since Arabic and English words are not 100% equivalent......


it is true

that is what all the translators had done

for example

your verse 2-236

lets see the various translations

002.236
YUSUFALI: There is no blame on you if ye divorce women before consummation or the fixation of their dower; but bestow on them (A suitable gift), the wealthy according to his means, and the poor according to his means;- A gift of a reasonable amount is due from those who wish to do the right thing.
PICKTHAL: It is no sin for you if ye divorce women while yet ye have not touched them, nor appointed unto them a portion. Provide for them, the rich according to his means, and the straitened according to his means, a fair provision. (This is) a bounden duty for those who do good.

mohsin khan

236. There is no sin on you, if you divorce women while yet you have not touched (had sexual relation with) them, nor appointed unto them their Mahr (bridal money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage). But bestow on them ( a suitable gift), the rich according to his means, and the poor according to his means, a gift of reasonable amount is a duty on the doers of good.

sahih international

There is no blame upon you if you divorce women you have not touched nor specified for them an obligation. But give them [a gift of] compensation - the wealthy according to his capability and the poor according to his capability - a provision according to what is acceptable, a duty upon the doers of good.

now tell me , does the meaning was changed by any of this translation , by adding "yet" or deleting "YET"

the answer is no

but adding "yet" in 65-4 makes world of difference

and because of this reason , these translators never added it

that is what i was explaining in

viewtopic.php?p=5598#p5598
Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:24 am

and further in

viewtopic.php?p=5689#p5689
Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:04 pm

so, we cannot add a word or omit a word if that word changes the meaning
you cannot add or omit a word for your convinced , quran is not your fathers property so that you can add or omit as you like just to prove your sadistic hatred towards islam
leave your hatred , have a cool mind then read with a just mind
i am not here to answer your hatred , cassei

with regards

Mushtaq

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:53 am
by parvez mushtaq
Aksel Ankersen wrote:
Parvez Mushtaq wrote:What are the signs of PCOS?

Teen girls and young women with PCOS commonly have one or more signs. Some of the most common signs include:
• Irregular periods - periods that come every few months, not at all, or too frequently

Hello Parvez

The Koran clearly states they have not menstruated, and gives no minimum age for those females.

Although some teens with PCOS or indeed women with CAIS may not have periods, they are among the minority of alla-ee lam yahidna.

The obvious meaning of girls who have not menstruated is prepubescent children... you're reading a meaning of disease into this verse where none is mentioned.


dear aksel

i am talking about the basic abnormality in females which accounts for more then 10% among them
and you are talking about a defect by birth which is about less then 0.005%
we are talking about iddah
about mensuration
not about deceases

now see the next part of our topic ,

"minimum age of marriage "

now tell me what should be that age for a female

with regards

Mushtaq

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:03 am
by Cassie
parvez mushtaq wrote:
Aksel Ankersen wrote:
Parvez Mushtaq wrote:What are the signs of PCOS?

Teen girls and young women with PCOS commonly have one or more signs. Some of the most common signs include:
• Irregular periods - periods that come every few months, not at all, or too frequently

Hello Parvez

The Koran clearly states they have not menstruated, and gives no minimum age for those females.

Although some teens with PCOS or indeed women with CAIS may not have periods, they are among the minority of alla-ee lam yahidna.

The obvious meaning of girls who have not menstruated is prepubescent children... you're reading a meaning of disease into this verse where none is mentioned.


dear aksel

i am talking about the basic abnormality in females which accounts for more then 10% among them
and you are talking about a defect by birth which is about less then 0.005%
we are talking about iddah
about mensuration
not about deceases

now see the next part of our topic ,

"minimum age of marriage "

now tell me what should be that age for a female

with regards

Mushtaq

There doesn't seem to be a minimal age for marriage according to the Quran. That much is clear. Bringing up disease as an excuse when the verse applies to ALL females is disingenous. Before Muslims knew about PCOS, they had applied 65-4 to PRE-PUBESCENT GIRLS. It is only Kafirs who told you about PCOS. If we didn't tell you, you would not come up with that excuse.

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:46 am
by Aksel Ankersen
Hi again.

parvez mushtaq wrote:i am talking about the basic abnormality in females which accounts for more then 10% among them
and you are talking about a defect by birth which is about less then 0.005%

Either way it's a disease, which only a minority of females experience. Pre-pubescence on the other hand is experienced by all females. You assume the verse talks about the uncommon case of disease rather than the invariable case of prepubescence. Also, the three conditions under which iddah is observed fit perfectly with three stages of female reproductive development: Pre-pubescent, child-bearing age, menopausal.

parvez mushtaq wrote:now see the next part of our topic ,

"minimum age of marriage "

now tell me what should be that age for a female

with regards

Mushtaq

I'm not qualified to say, but I'd hazard age fifteen.

Most girls are past menarche by 15.

Image

Data from: Eveleth and Tanner (1976) "Worldwide Variation in HumanGrowth." Cambridge University Press

The Koran did not specify any such minimum age. This leaves open the potential for child abuse under the guise of marriage.

-Aksel

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:03 pm
by Brendalee
I have several times seen Muslims argue that since pre-pubescent girls do not get pregnant, and (their own argument) that the purpose of an iddah is about pregnancy, then it does not make sense to have an iddah for pre-pubescent girls. I realise this argument has been dealt with, but just to add an additional note:

A three month iddah makes perfect sense for a pre-pubescent girl. Medical science makes it very plain that early sex is dangerous for little girls and can cause permanent physical damage, eg fistulas, inability to bear live children, a high rate of infant/mother mortality during childbirth, etc. These things are commonly seen in societies where child brides are common.

It's hard to imagine that any Muslim man would care to KNOWINGLY marry a child that is going to stink and leak her entire life, or be obviously damaged and almost surely unable to bear him live children in the future. And with a society where there are child-brides, this nasty side effect would have been known.

A three month iddah might therefore be at least a precaution against that. Time to see what her health appears to be like and whether she might have been discernably damaged by her former husband, saving a future potential husband the upset of taking on damaged goods and any subsequent squabble over the mahr that was paid.

So there surely CAN be more of a reason for an iddah than just considerations of pregnancy.

In any event, a child could - in some cases - get pregnant at the same time as her first period.

Additionally, some children have their first period in ignorance and it frightens them and so they use quite ingenious methods sometimes to hide it, even to making themselves vomit and feigning illness.

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 6:00 am
by Aksel Ankersen
Brendalee wrote:A three month iddah might therefore be at least a precaution against that. Time to see what her health appears to be like and whether she might have been discernably damaged by her former husband, saving a future potential husband the upset of taking on damaged goods and any subsequent squabble over the mahr that was paid.

Also, the girl is no longer a virgin and it will be harder to find a new husband for her... damaged or not. The three months makes perfect sense.

Re: Age of marriage as per quran

PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:36 am
by parvez mushtaq
There doesn't seem to be a minimal age for marriage according to the Quran.

leave quran for the time being , just tell your honest opinion about the age of marriage


Bringing up disease as an excuse when the verse applies to ALL females is disingenous
.
dear cassie
we are not talking about diseases
if PCOS is a disease, then lets see what is about amenorrhoea
i think you know about amenorrhoea , cassie
for you information , the following are
Secondary amenorrhoea

1. Pregnancy
2. Anovulation
3. Menopause
4. Premature menopause
5. Hypothalamic-pituitary dysfunction, including
1. Exercise amenorrhoea, related to excessive physical exercise
2. Stress amenorrhoea,
3. Eating disorders and weight loss (obesity, anorexia nervosa, or bulimia)
6. Hyperprolactinemia (elevated prolactin levels)
7. Polycystic ovary syndrome (PCO-S)
8. Androgen producing tumor (i.e arrhenoblastoma)
9. Intrauterine adhesions (Asherman's Syndrome)
10. Thyroid dysfunction
11. Hemochromatosis
12. Drug-induced

if you think , PCOS is a disease, then pregnancy is a disease and menopause is a disease and the list goes on
the point was , iddah for women
and the verse 65-4 covers all this categories
and it NEVER GAVE SANCTIONS TO CHILD MARRIAGE

Before Muslims knew about PCOS, they had applied 65-4 to PRE-PUBESCENT GIRLS

thanks cassie

. It is only Kafirs who told you about PCOS.

hatred
this is noting but hatred


If we didn't tell you, you would not come up with that excuse.


i cannot understand your claim know, are you talking about me ( as an individual) or to entire muslims ummah
if you are talking about me then for your information , cassie
this started on dec 25 as a Christmas present to rex
and this i had discussed long back
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... &start=285
PostPosted: Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:30 am

then an while talking to haik i said to him
at least , people like rex and cassandra was able to find few verses from quran to deny my point
but you cant even prove your points

(i was refering to this verse 65-4 )
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... c&start=15
Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:27 am
and this may be the reason to haik posting a stale article on the main site

ultimately , you all failed miserably to prove that 65-4 sanctions child marriage
what is this cassie ,
is this happened by chance or do we have other name for this
what is this
WHAT IS THIS
WHY THESE THINGS HAPPENED THIS WAY
GOD knows

With Regards

Mushtaq