Music

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antineoETC
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Music

Post by antineoETC »

Pakistan:Clerics oppose music, dance at Pashtun village weddings

If there is a god then it created human beings with an inborn capacity to enjoy music and an impulse to make it and dance to it. Why then would this god want to see music and dancing banned? Indeed, apart from several references to angels "singing the praises of their lord', the Qur'an makes absolutely no reference to music or dancing, let alone banning them. Muhammadan antagonism to music and dancing rather derives from a number of hadith, which could be reasonably declared unauthentic for the afforementioned reasons. Of course, so strong is the natural human impulse to sing, dance, bang out rhythms and make instruments that ancient music and dance forms have survived in the lands conquered by Islam to this day.
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Music

Post by Takeiteasynow »

Actually in early Islam and at the Abbasid Court Caliphs and their entourage would be entertained by singing girls - - indentured girls and women who entertained and entranced the caliphs and aristocrats who worked at the Islamic Courts of the Abbasid Empire. These qiyan girls specialized in poetry, music and art - even daughters of Caliphs were trained as qiyan - so early Islam had no issues with music and entertainment, Singing girls are mentioned frequently in the hadith and would entertain Muhammad after a long day of work.

First described by Strabo, the tradition of singing girls can be traced from Petra all the way to Bagdad as most Abbasid Caliphs were of Nabataean origin.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

antineoETC
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Re: Music

Post by antineoETC »

Takeiteasynow wrote:Actually in early Islam and at the Abbasid Court Caliphs and their entourage would be entertained by singing girls - - indentured girls and women who entertained and entranced the caliphs and aristocrats who worked at the Islamic Courts of the Abbasid Empire.
Could you clarify what you mean by "indentured" in this context?
Islam had no issues with music and entertainment, Singing girls are mentioned frequently in the hadith and would entertain Muhammad after a long day of work.
I would be interested in reading some of these hadiths if you will provide examples. Thanks.
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website

sum
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Re: Music

Post by sum »

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/9290/si ... lebrations
Singing and dancing at celebrations
9290
Publication : 16-06-2003
Views : 110944
EN

Question
What kind of music is permissible for woman to dance to (at marriages where no men are present)? Is it only Islamic music? With only a drum beat? What are permissible music topics?.

Answer
Related
Praise be to Allah.

Firstly:
With regard to music, the ruling is as we have explained in question no. 5011, where we stated that it is haraam to play musical instruments. Here we will explain some of the things that are permitted to women only.

Secondly:
It is permissible for women to beat the daff and to sing permissible songs on permissible occasions such as Eid, celebrations and the like.
Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
It is permissible for him – the bridegroom – to allow women to announce the marriage by beating the daff only, and by singing permissible songs in which there is no description of beauty or mention of immoral phrases… then he mentioned the evidence for that.

Adaab al-Zafaaf, p. 93.
The evidence that the Shaykh mentioned is:
It was narrated that al-Rubayyi’ bint Mu’awwidh said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) entered upon me on the day of my wedding and sat on my mattress as you are sitting now, and young girls were beating the daff and singing about their fathers who had been killed at the battle of Badr, until a girl said, “And among us is a Prophet who knows what will happen tomorrow.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not say this, but say the other things that you were saying.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3700.
It was narrated from ‘Aa’ishah that she took a woman on her wedding night to a man from among the Ansaar, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to her, “O ‘Aa’ishah, was there any entertainment (in the gathering)? For the Ansaar love entertainment.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4765.
It was narrated that Abu Ishaaq said: I heard ‘Aamir ibn Sa’d al-Bajali say: I saw Thaabit ibn Wadee’ah and Qarazah ibn Ka’b al-Ansaari at a wedding, and there was singing. I spoke to them about that and they said that a concession had been granted allowing singing at weddings and weeping for the dead, so long as there was no wailing.

Narrated by al-Bayhaqi, 14469.
It was narrated that Muhammad ibn Haatib al-Jamahi said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The thing that differentiates between haraam and halaal is the beating of the daff and voices.”
Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1008; al-Nasaa’i, 3316; Ibn Maajah, 1886. Classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Adaab al-Zafaaf, p. 96.
This is what it is permitted for women to do of singing at weddings. The only musical instrument that is permissible for them is the daff, and not others such as the tabl. The difference between them is that the tabl is covered on both sides whereas the daff is open on one side and covered on the other.

The Standing Committee said:
With regard to the tabl and other kinds of musical instruments, it is not permissible to use them with these anasheed, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his companions (may Allaah be pleased with them) did not do that.

Fataawa, no. 3259, dated 13/10/1400 AH.
Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
With regard to the tabl, it is not permissible to beat it in weddings, rather the daff only should be used.

Fataawa Islamiyyah, 3/185.
Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said:
The drum that is covered on both sides is called the tabl, and it is not permissible, because it is a kind of musical instrument and all kinds of musical instruments are haraam, except that for which there is evidence that it is halaal, which is the daff at weddings.

Fataawa Islamiyyah, 3/186.
Thirdly:
With regard to dancing, it is not permissible in front of men, non-mahrams, mahrams or women, because of the fitnah that may be caused by the movements of the body. It is well known that women may feel desire for one another, and even if that is not the case, there is no guarantee that one of them will not go back to her menfolk and describe to them what she has seen of the beauty of the dancer and her movement, so this may affect the men and may cause a great deal of mischief. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade such things.
It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No woman should look at another woman then describe her to her husband so that it is as if he can see her.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4839.
In the early days the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) allowed effeminate men to enter upon woman, but when he saw one of them describing women and disclosing their secrets, he forbade them from doing that.

It was narrated from Umm Salamah (may Allaah be pleased with her): The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) entered upon me and there was an effeminate man with me. I heard him say to ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Abi Umayyah, “O ‘Abd-Allaah, if Allaah should enable you to conquer al-Taa’if tomorrow you should look for the daughter of Ghaylaan…” then he described her. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “These people should not enter upon you.”
Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3980; Muslim, 4048.
The alluring movements of a woman are part of her ‘awrah, and it is not permissible for her to show them to anyone but her husband.
Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
Dancing is makrooh in principle, but if it is done in the western manner or in imitation of the kaafir women, then it becomes haraam, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever imitates a people is one of them.” Moreover it sometimes leads to fitnah, because the dancer may be a young, beautiful woman, so the other women are tempted. Even if she is among other women, the other women may do things that indicate that they are temped by her. And whatever is a cause of fitnah is not allowed.

Liqa’ al-Baab al-Maftooh, q. 1085.
And he said:
With regard to dancing on the part of women, it is an evil action and we cannot say that it is permissible, because we have heard of incidents that have occurred among women because of it. If it is done by men that is even worse, because that is men imitating women, and the evil involved is well known. If dancing is done among a mixed group of men and women, as some of the foolish do, that is even worse because of the mixing and great fitnah involved, especially when that is done at a wedding party.”

Fataawa Islamiyyah, 3/187.
Fourthly:
With regard to permissible words in songs, they are those that do not contain any haraam descriptions, or provoke desire, or words that are forbidden in sharee’ah, or some innovated adhkaar, and other haraam things.
There are sufficient permissible things that may be sung about, such as encouraging good morals, the pursuit of knowledge, giving up haraam things, and so on.

The Standing Committee said:
You are correct in your ruling that songs of the modern type are haraam, because they include immoral words and things that are no good, and they include idle leisure and provocation of sexual desire, and promiscuity, and the voice has a quality that inspires evil thoughts in the mind of the listener. May Allaah help us and you to do that which pleases Him.
It is permissible for you to replace these songs with Islamic nasheeds which contain rulings, exhortation and teaching, which will increase people’s keenness and pride in their religion, and promote Islamic feelings and put people off evil and what leads to it.
Fatwa no. 3295, dated 13/10/1400 AH

And Allaah knows best.


I think that all this stems from Muhammad probably being a very poor dancer and singer. He would have been most unwilling to get onto the dance floor and find that the great unwashed were much better than he was and which would have been most unacceptable to him. He couldn`t have the plebs being superior to him in any way, could he?

sum

antineoETC
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Re: Music

Post by antineoETC »

FATWA ON MUSIC BY THE GRAND MUFTI AND SHAYKH OF AL-AZHAR

No wonder the once great centers of civilization, like Egypt and Babylon, eventually fell into a steep decline when their finest minds can spend such immense time debating whether music is permitted and if it is what kind is permitted. It is just so bizarre and futile! If Vienna had fallen to the Turks then Mozart, had he been born, may well have spent his life exercising his mind over "issues" like this instead of composing his great musical works.
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Music

Post by Takeiteasynow »

antineoETC wrote:Could you clarify what you mean by "indentured" in this context?
Forced contract labor.
antineoETC wrote:I would be interested in reading some of these hadiths if you will provide examples. Thanks.
https://sunnah.com/search?q=singing+girls
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

antineoETC
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Re: Music

Post by antineoETC »

Takeiteasynow wrote:Forced contract labor.
How does that differ from slavery?
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Music

Post by Takeiteasynow »

antineoETC wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:14 pm
How does that differ from slavery?
Not much I guess. Contract labor should end after a designated period.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

antineoETC
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Re: Music

Post by antineoETC »

Takeiteasynow wrote:Not much I guess. Contract labor should end after a designated period.
Aside from "indentured" girls and women did the caliphs also have actual out and out slave girls singing and dancing for them?
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Music

Post by Takeiteasynow »

I don't think so. It took years of education and practice before these qiyan could join the court in Bagdad. The most famous qayna was from Yemen and married the caliph and gave birth to the most famous caliph of the Abassid age, Harun al-Rashid. During his rule of shortly after the era of the qiyan singing girls ended, around 820 AD.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

antineoETC
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Re: Music

Post by antineoETC »

Takeiteasynow wrote:I don't think so. It took years of education and practice before these qiyan could join the court in Bagdad.
I would imagine that a harem slave would have had plenty of time to learn dancing when she wasn't getting raped by her owner. Didn't the caliphs have sizable harems of captive women and girls?
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Music

Post by Takeiteasynow »

I don't know. I am only following the Strabo's singing girls from Petra all the way to to Bagdhad and Nabataean families from Petra ruling the Abbasid Caliphate.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

antineoETC
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Re: Music

Post by antineoETC »

Takeiteasynow wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:49 pm
I don't know. I am only following the Strabo's singing girls from Petra all the way to to Bagdhad and Nabataean families from Petra ruling the Abbasid Caliphate.
So you don't know if some, or maybe even ALL of the caliphs, had harems full of sex slaves. Perhaps you can do some googling to find out and report back with your findings.
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website

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Takeiteasynow
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Re: Music

Post by Takeiteasynow »

I would imagine that a harem slave would have had plenty of time to learn dancing when she wasn't getting raped by her owner.
Perhaps you didn't realize that your vivid daydreams are irrelevant in this context. As said before these 'Singing Girls' or Qiyan specialized in poetry, music and art; even daughters of 'Caliphs' were educated as Qiyan. Would a regime of systematic rape and abuse produce the desired result?

In fact early Abbasid 'Caliphs' were secular rulers and stood completely outside Islamic tradition - only after Baghdad converted it became an Islamic court with many nasty totalitarian traditions and the Qiyan tradition was immediately abolished.
Abraham= H'ammu'rab(b)i, Historical Muhammad=Benjamin of Tiberias. Islam: Syncretic Israelite Yahwishm Deity: nameless, epithets Dsr, El Qutbay, ʼAlâhâ, Allāh. Ka'ba: Kutha => Samaria => Petra=> Makkah. Hijrah 622: Petra => Kerak

antineoETC
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Re: Music

Post by antineoETC »

Takeiteasynow wrote:As said before these 'Singing Girls' or Qiyan specialized in poetry, music and art; even daughters of 'Caliphs' were educated as Qiyan. Would a regime of systematic rape and abuse produce the desired result?
You admitted above that there was "not much difference" between an indentured singing/dancing girl and a slave. I am sure that if I looked into it I would have difficulty finding a single Abassid ruler who did not boast a huge collection of "concubines".
In fact early Abbasid 'Caliphs' were secular rulers and stood completely outside Islamic tradition
You stated above that "early Islam" had no problem with Music. Now you are saying that the practice of music in the Abassid period was enabled because they weren't really Islamic.

I have forgotten most of what I read about the Abassids years back, but seem to recall that they were brought to power on a wave of religious revivalism. When you say the early Abassids were "secular" are you saying that they were lax in enforcing the Sharia on society or personally lax in abiding by Islamic principles by, for instance, being drunkards? Or were the main schools of Sharia not in existence until some time into the Abassid period?

The caliphs' legitimacy was predicated on them fulfilling their obligations of enforcing the laws of Allah and waging jihad, so I have some difficulty in any caliphs being "secular" in any meaningful sense. Even where a Caliph's military aggression against, say, the Byzantines may have been motivated more by the desire for personal acquisition of territory and glory than Islamic piety , it would still have been presented in Islamic terms and the individual Musllm soldier would have seen it in those terms.

In fact, I have difficulty with the idea of the ruler of any Sharia-permeated society being "secular" in any meaningful sense of the word. Kemal Attaturk's "secularisation" of Turkey was only skin deep because a large part of the population continued to attend mosques every week.
- only after Baghdad converted it became an Islamic court with many nasty totalitarian traditions and the Qiyan tradition was immediately abolished.
When did that happen?
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website

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