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Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:22 am
by IoshkaFutz
Chiclets wrote:So what exactly was wrong with ixo's statement that had you guys offended ?
You're the one being offended.

"Do you want me to pray for you?"
is like asking
"Can I get you a cup of coffee?"

Would it be the case to go crazy, feel insulted and threatened and demand redress because you are a tea-drinker?

Would you report the offering person and see to it that he was forced to attend diversity and tolerance school or would you just say: "No thank you, I don't like coffee, I'm a Tea-person?"

That poor nurse will lose her livelihood and be sent to a zombie school to be taught what she and everybody else already knows (i.e. that there are 100000000 different religions and no religions, atheists, agnostics, etc.).

Your challenge is to point out the coercion in a polite question, a caring offer, that can easily take no for an answer. What certain religionists might think of atheists and vice versa is utterly beside the point.

You have to psychoanalyze yourself and try to figure out why being offered something which you can easily and instantly accept or refuse is oppressive. Why it needs to be a legal issue, especially in a country that has a high and rising rate of real crimes.

Is the UK really so intolerant?

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:04 pm
by Chiclets
People shouldn't ask such questions; if a person wants prayer they can ask. Then it would be okay.

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:13 pm
by diotima64
Chiclets wrote:People shouldn't ask such questions; if a person wants prayer they can ask. Then it would be okay.
Oh no! The persecution!! Someone ASKED me to PRAY for them!! Ughhhhh!! I´ll SUE their sorry ARSE off of them!! :x :x


Atheists say the darndest things, really.... :nono:

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:25 pm
by Chiclets
you look so cute when in rage. :lotpot:

Image

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:29 pm
by diotima64
Chiclets wrote:you look so cute when in rage. :lotpot:
as usual, you miss the point... it wasn´t MY rage, I was referring to. ;)

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:29 pm
by diotima64
diotima64 wrote:
Chiclets wrote:you look so cute when in rage. :lotpot:
as usual, you miss the point... it wasn´t MY rage, I was expressing. ;)

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:48 pm
by Coshida
diotima64 wrote:
Chiclets wrote:People shouldn't ask such questions; if a person wants prayer they can ask. Then it would be okay.
Oh no! The persecution!! Someone ASKED me to PRAY for them!! Ughhhhh!! I´ll SUE their sorry ARSE off of them!! :x :x


Atheists say the darndest things, really.... :nono:
Just a thought, but maybe the patient was frightened. As in, maybe the nurse's offer of prayer made her think she was sicker than she was, that prayer was the only hope she had left.

Even so, if this is the first time she's been told, its stupid to suspend her and threaten to sack her.

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:36 am
by BlacKStaR
Coshida wrote:
diotima64 wrote:
Chiclets wrote:People shouldn't ask such questions; if a person wants prayer they can ask. Then it would be okay.
Oh no! The persecution!! Someone ASKED me to PRAY for them!! Ughhhhh!! I´ll SUE their sorry ARSE off of them!! :x :x


Atheists say the darndest things, really.... :nono:
Just a thought, but maybe the patient was frightened. As in, maybe the nurse's offer of prayer made her think she was sicker than she was, that prayer was the only hope she had left.

Even so, if this is the first time she's been told, its stupid to suspend her and threaten to sack her.
She should be sacked for life. Prayers and lamentations should be kept outside of work place. The first foremost duty of a nurse is to attend to the sick. Not offering prayers as part of their professional service.

Leave that to the goddamn priests and pastors.

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:52 am
by Coshida
Of course. Anyone who mentions prayer should be sacked, kicked up the backside and think themselves lucky they're not dead. Such is the enlightenment offered by this grasssroots movement of ex-muslims. How enlightened you have all become since leaving Islam.

Excuse me for clinging on to my ridiculous muslim notions of compassion and understanding and justice.

:ermm:

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:23 am
by BlacKStaR
Coshida wrote:Of course. Anyone who mentions prayer should be sacked, kicked up the backside and think themselves lucky they're not dead. Such is the enlightenment offered by this grasssroots movement of ex-muslims. How enlightened you have all become since leaving Islam.

Excuse me for clinging on to my ridiculous muslim notions of compassion and understanding and justice.

:ermm:

What are you SQUEALING about mohammedan?? let me teach you something mohammedan child.

1. Compassion in Islam - MYTH
2. Understanding and Justice - Fairy tales and folklores.

If you look around, the two items you said above is whats wrong with humanity now. ISLAM.

Islam is a vector. The minds of Mohammedans are the carriers. Diseased minds begets diseased and retarded children.

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:19 pm
by Hank Palooka
IoshkaFutz wrote:Would you like me to pray for you?
(Yes, thank you Sister / No thank you sister)
(Is oppression)

...was ordered to attend an equality course...
(is not oppression)

I think more surveillance cameras might be required.

There are many instances when not even Islam is as stupid, dogmatic, inhuman as atheism

This is not atheism. This is down right stupidity. Let's be clear on that.

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:14 am
by Ex_muslimah
The biggest joke of the whole matter is the medical profession is looking at spirituality in the medical setting.

I include some links.

http://www.med.howard.edu/ethics/ethics ... _19_01.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://depts.washington.edu/bioethx/topics/spirit.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/291/23/2883" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the Lancet:

Religion, spirituality, and medicine
Original Text
Dr RP Sloan PhD a b c Corresponding AuthorEmail Address, E Bagiella PhD a d, T Powell MD b e
Religion and science share a complex history as well as a complex present. At various times worldwide, medical and spiritual care was dispensed by the same person. At other times, passionate (even violent) conflicts characterised the association between religion and medicine and science. As interest in alternative and complementary medicine has grown, the notion of linking religious and medical interventions has become widely popular, especially in the USA. For many people, religious and spiritual activities provide comfort in the face of illness. However, as US medical schools increasingly offer courses in religion and spirituality1 and as reports continue to indicate interest in this subject among both physicians and the general public, it is essential to examine how, if at all, medicine should address these issues. Here, in a comprehensive, though not systematic, review of the empirical evidence and ethical issues we make an initial attempt at such an examination.
Interest in connecting religion and medicine
In a recent poll of 1000 US adults, 79% of the respondents believed that spiritual faith can help people recover from disease, and 63% believed that physicians should talk to patients about spiritual faith.2 Recent articles in such US national newspapers as the Atlanta Constitution, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, and USA Today report that religion can be good for your health. A new magazine, Spirituality and Health, edited by the former editor of Harvard Business Review, has begun publication. Eisenberg and colleagues, in a widely cited article on unconventional therapies, noted that 25% of all respondents reported using prayer as medical therapy.3 King and Bushwick4 reported that 48% of hospital inpatients wanted their physicians to pray with them.4
Within the medical community, there is also considerable interest. Meetings sponsored by the US National Institute of Aging, the National Center for Medical Rehabilitation Research,5 and the Mind/Body Medical Institute, Beth Israel Deaconess Hospital, Boston, have drawn large, enthusiastic audiences. Nearly 30 US medical schools include in their curricula courses on religion, spirituality, and health.1 Of 296 physicians surveyed during the October, 1996, meeting of the American Academy of Family Physicians, 99% were convinced that religious beliefs can heal, and 75% believed that prayers of others could promote a patient's recovery. Benson writes that faith in God has a health-promoting effect.6 Larson and Matthews argue for spiritual and religious interventions in medical practice, hope that the “wall of separation” between medicine and religion will be torn down,7 and assert that “the medicine of the future is going to be prayer and Prozac” (ref 8, p 85). In an American Medical Association publication, Matthews and colleagues recommend that clinicians ask “what can I do to support your faith or religious commitment?” to patients who respond favourably to questions about whether religion or faith are “helpful in handling your illness'.9
Empirical evidence
In many studies, religion, as a putative antecedent to health outcomes, has been measured in several ways—eg, assessment of religious behaviours, such as frequency of church attendance or prayer; dimensions of religious experience, such as the comfort it may provide; and health differences as a function of differences in religious denomination or degree of religious orthodoxy.
In addition, health outcomes vary considerably—eg, physical disease outcomes, mental health outcomes, and health behaviours. Here, we consider methodological issues that pertain to studies of physical disease outcomes.
Control for confounding variables and other covariates
Confounders such as behavioural and genetic differences and stratification variables such as age, sex, education, ethnicity, socioeconomic status, and health status may have an important role in the association between religion and health. Failure to control for these factors can lead to a biased estimation of this association. Multivariate methods allow estimation of the magnitude of the association between religious variables and health outcomes while controlling for the effects of other variables. However, use of these methods requires complete presentation of the results—at least the coefficients and corresponding confidence intervals for all the variables in the statistical model. Reports that fail to do this are incomplete and may be misleading.
Attempts to assess the effect of degree of religiousness on health outcomes show this. Increased religious devotion, assessed as service as a Roman Catholic priest,10 nun,11 Morman priest,12, or Trappist or Benedictine monk,13 is associated with reductions in morbidity and mortality. These cases, however, were selected for study precisely because they are inclined to stricter adherence to codes of conduct that proscribe behaviours associated with risk (eg, smoking, alcohol consumption, sexual activity, psychosocial stress, and in some cases, consumption of meat).
In a series of studies from Israel,14—16 religiousness, measured as religious orthodoxy, was also shown to confer health benefits. However, one of these14 was a case-control study, the deficiencies of which are widely known. In another,15 a multivariate model that predicted mortality from coronary heart disease included standard risk factors but omitted religion, and no information on risk-ratio or confidence intervals or even level of statistical significance was provided. Finally, in a study matching secular and religious Kibbutzim according to location, use of the same regional hospital, and members older than 40 years, all-cause mortality was significantly greater among members of the secular Kibbutzim. However, the strategy of matching ensures equivalence of groups only on the matched variables. As a consequence, the groups differed with respect to dietary habits, smoking, blood cholesterol concentrations, and marital status, with the secular group having greater risk, as the authors themselves report. The multivariate analysis of mortality did not control for these factors.
Control for confounding and other covariates also affects studies that report that religious behaviours and experiences influence health outcomes. In some studies with large databases, this problem can be addressed. Both the Alameda County Study and the Tecumseh Community Health Study showed that frequency of attendance at religious services was inversely associated with mortality.17, 18 However, after control for all relevant covariates, this relation held only for women. In another large study, attendance at religious services was associated with increased functional capacity in the elderly19 but after control for appropriate covariates, this relation held for only 3 of the 7 years in which outcome data were collected. There was no effect on mortality.20 In a smaller study, religiousness predicted mortality in the elderly poor but only among those in poor health.21
In many other studies, inadequate control for important covariates points to significant findings when none may exist. For example, Pressman and colleagues22 reported that among elderly women after surgical repair of broken hips, religiousness was associated with better ambulation status at discharge. Although the analysis controlled for severity of health condition, it did not control for age, a critical variable when studying functional capacity in the elderly.
In some cases, problems of interpretation arise not so much in the original research but rather in secondary sources. A case in point is a report by Comstock and Partridge,23 frequently cited as showing a positive association between church attendance and health. However, as Comstock himself later reported, this finding was probably due to failure to control for the important covariate of functional capacity: people with reduced capacity (and poorer health) were less likely to go to church.24 This latter study is rarely cited. Similarly, Koenig reports that a study by Colantonio and colleagues25 “found lower rates of stroke in persons who attended religious services at least once per week …”.26 However, this was only the case for the univariate analysis and the effect disappeared after covariates such as levels of physical function were added to the analysis. Levin, in a review of a review, reported that 22 of 27 studies of religious attendance and health showed a significant positive relation,27 despite his own previous assertion that associations between attendance and health are highly questionable because this research is characterised by numerous methodological problems including the failure to adjust for confounders and covariates.28
Finally, many studies evaluate differences in health indicators as a function of religious denomination (eg, 29, 30, 31). However, they are generally conducted precisely because religious groups differ on risk behaviours such as smoking and alcohol consumption or on genetic heritage.
Failure to control for multiple comparisons
Many studies on religion and health fail to make an adjustment for the greater likelihood of finding a statistically significant result when conducting multiple statistical tests. For example, one study reported that religious attendance was inversely associated with high concentrations of interleukin-6 in the elderly.32 However, interleukin-6 was one of eight outcome variables and there was no attempt to control for multiple comparisons, as the authors themselves reported. In a retrospective study,33 the associations between frequency of prayer and six items measuring subjective health were examined. Analyses of variance were conducted on each of these six perceptions of health and three revealed effects of frequency of prayer at the 0·05 level of statistical significance. In such studies, adjustments of α levels to control for such multiple comparisons would render these findings non-significant.
There are similar problems in the only published randomised clinical trial.34 In this double-blind study, patients in a coronary-care unit (CCU) were assigned randomly either to standard care or to daily intercessory prayer ministered by three to seven born-again Christians. 29 outcome variables were measured, and on six the prayer group had fewer newly diagnosed ailments. However, the six significant outcomes were not independent: the prayer group had fewer cases of newly diagnosed heart failure and of newly prescribed diuretics and fewer cases of newly diagnosed pneumonia and of newly prescribed antibiotics. There was no control for multiple comparisons, a fact recognised by the author. To address this issue, “multivariant” analysis was conducted but the results were not presented, except for a p value for overall model.
Conflicting findings
Published work on religion and health lacks consistency, even among well-conducted studies. For example, while Idler and Kasl found some effects of religious attendance on functional capacity in the elderly, measures of “religious involvement”, an index of the “private, reflective” aspects of religion, were not associated with any health outcome. Neither church attendance nor religious involvement was associated with lower mortality.20 However, in two other large studies,17, 18 church attendance was associated with lower mortality, but only in women.
Inconsistencies also arise within studies not based on large epidemiological samples. For instance, when each individual item from the scale of religiousness used by Idler and Kasl, was used in another study, “religious comfort and strength” was significantly associated with lower mortality after cardiac surgery in the elderly even after control for relevant confounders.35 However, the other items from this scale, including religious attendance, did not predict mortality. Moreover, when the entire scale was used, the relation between religion and mortality failed to reach significance. Byrd34 reported an advantage in hospital course for the group receiving prayer compared with the control group. However, the groups did not differ in days in the CCU, length of stay in hospital, and number of discharge medications. While total cholesterol concentrations were lower across all age groups for a cohort of Seventh Day Adventists (SDAs) than in age-matched healthy New York City men and women, suggesting a lower risk of coronary heart disease among SDAs, serum triglycerides of the SDA men in the coronary-prone age range (>32 years) were 19% higher than in the controls, which suggests the opposite.29
To some degree, lack of consistency is characteristic of an evolving field and may be the product of differences in study design, definitions of religious and spiritual variables, and outcome variables. The absence of specific definitions of religious and spiritual activity is an important problem, since many of the studies to which we refer define these activities differently. Published research would be substantially improved with better definitions of these terms. However, inconsistency in the empirical findings makes it difficult to support recommendations for clinical interventions.
Ethical issues
Health professionals, even in these days of consumer advocacy, influence patients by virtue of their medical expertise. When doctors depart from areas of established expertise to promote a non-medical agenda, they abuse their status as professionals. Thus, we question inquiries into a patient's spiritual life in the service of making recommendations that link religious practice with better health outcomes. Is it really appropriate, as Matthews and colleagues9 recommend, for a physician to ask patients what he or she can do to support their faith or religious commitment?
A second ethical consideration involves the limits of medical intervention. If religious or spiritual factors were shown convincingly to be related to health outcomes, they would join such factors as socioeconomic status and marital status,38 already well established as significantly associated with health. Although physicans may choose to engage patients in discussions of these matters to understand them better, we would consider it unacceptable for a physician to advise an unmarried patient to marry because the data show that marriage is associated with lower mortality.38 This is because we generally regard financial and marital matters as private and personal, not the business of medicine, even if they have health implications. There is an important difference between “taking into account” marital, financial, or religious factors and “taking them on” as the objects of interventions.
A third ethical problem concerns the possibility of doing harm. Linking religious activities and better health outcomes can be harmful to patients, who already must confront age-old folk wisdom that illness is due to their own moral failure.37 Within any individual religion, are the more devout adherents “better” people, more deserving of health than others? If evidence showed health advantages of some religious denominations over others, should physicians be guided by this evidence to counsel conversion? Attempts to link religious and spiritual activities to health are reminiscent of the now discredited research suggesting that different ethnic groups show differing levels of moral probity, intelligence, or other measures of social worth.37 Since all human beings, devout or profane, ultimately will succumb to illness, we wish to avoid the additional burden of guilt for moral failure to those whose physical health fails before our own.
Some practitioners who link faith and medical practice do so appropriately, and in ways that do not depend on utilitarian expectations of better health. For instance, devout health professionals may view their work as an extension of their religious beliefs. Such physicians may or may not choose to share their opinions with patients. However, some patients and doctors may be aware of a common faith. There is no ethical objection to co-worshippers discussing medical issues in the context of a shared faith. Indeed, a thorough understanding of a patient's religious values can be extremely important in discussing critical medical issues, such as care at the end of life. Irrespective of the practitioner's religion, respectful attention must be paid to the impact of religion on the patient's decisions about health care.38
An especially poignant example of the devout practitioner who appropriately notes connections between illness, recovery, and prayers of thanks is provided by Prager, in describing a serious illness in his son.41 Prager does not suggest that his son recovers function because he is faithful, but rather teaches how the faithful may give thanks for recovery. Such connections between faith and health are valuable because they are sensitive to all aspects of the patient's experience, yet in no way depend on spurious claims about scientific data.
Conclusions
Even in the best studies, the evidence of an association between religion, spirituality, and health is weak and inconsistent.
We believe therefore that it is premature to promote faith and religion as adjunctive medical treatments. However, between the extremes of rejecting the idea that religion and faith can bring comfort to some people coping with illness and endorsing the view that physicians should actively promote religious activity among patients lies a vast uncharted territory in which guidelines for appropriate behaviour are needed urgently.
Nonetheless, caution is required. There is a temptation to conclude that this matter can be resolved as soon as methodologically sound empirical research becomes available. Even the existence of convincing evidence of a relation between religious activity (however defined) and beneficial health outcomes may not eliminate the ethical concerns that we raise here. Religious pursuits, such as decisions to marry or have children, are qualitatively different from health behaviours such as quitting smoking or eating a low-fat diet, even if they are linked unequivocally to health benefits.
No-one can object to respectful support for patients who draw upon religious faith in times of illness. However, until these ethical issues are resolved, suggestions that religious activity will promote health, that illness is the result of insufficient faith, are unwarranted.
We gratefully acknowledge the contributions of the many colleagues and friends who reviewed this manuscript.
References
1 Levin JS, Larson DN, Puchalski CM. Religion and spirituality in medicine: research and education. JAMA 1997; 278: 792-793. PubMed
2 McNichol T. The new faith in medicine. USA Today April 7, 1996: 4. PubMed
3 Eisenberg DM, Kessler RC, Foster C, Norlock FE, Calkins DR, Delbanco TL. Unconventional medicine in the United States: prevalence, costs, and patterns of use. N Engl J Med 1993; 328: 246-252. CrossRef | PubMed
4 King DE, Bushwick B. Beliefs and attitudes of hospital inpatients about faith healing and prayer. J Family Practice 1994; 39: 349-352. PubMed
5 Marwick C. Should physicians prescribe prayer for health? Spiritual aspects of well-being considered. JAMA 1995; 273: 1561-1562. PubMed
6 Benson H. Timeless Healing. New York: Fireside, 1996.
7 Matthews DA, Larson DB. Faith and medicine: reconciling the twin traditions of healing. Mind/Body Medicine 1997; 2: 3-6. PubMed
8 Sides H. The calibration of belief. New York Times Magazine 1997: 93-95. PubMed
9 Matthews DA, McCullough ME, Larson DB, Koenig HG, Swyers JP, Milano MG. Religious commitment and health status. Arch Family Medicine 1998; 7: 118-124. PubMed
10 Michalek AM, Mettlin C, Priore RL. Prostate cancer mortality among Catholic priests. J Surg Oncol 1981; 17: 129-133. CrossRef | PubMed
11 Timio M, Lippi G, Venanzi S, et al. Blood pressure trend and cardiovascular events in nuns in a secluded order: a 30-year follow-up study. Blood Pressure 1997; 6: 81-87. PubMed
12 Gardner JW, Lyon JL. Cancer in Utah Mormon men by lay priesthood level. Am J Epidemiol 1982; 116: 243-257. PubMed
13 de Gouw HWFM, Westndrop RGJ, Kunst AE, Mackenbach JP, Vandenbrouke JP. Decreased mortality among contemplative monks in the Netherlands. Am J Epidemiol 1996; 141: 771-775. PubMed
14 Friedlander Y, Kark JD, Stein Y. Religious orthodoxy and myocardial infarction in Jerusalem: a case control study. Int J Cardiol 1986; 10: 33-41. CrossRef | PubMed
15 Goldbourt U, Yaari S, Medalie JH. Factors predictive of long-term coronary heart disease mortality among 10 059 male Israeli civil servants and municipal employees. Cardiology 1993; 82: 100-121. PubMed
16 Kark JD, Shemi G, Friedlander Y, Martin O, Manor O, Blondheim SH. Does religious observance promote health? Mortality in secular and religious kibbutzim in Israel. AJPH 1996; 86: 341-346. PubMed
17 House JS, Robbins C, Metzner HL. The association of social relationships and activities with mortality: prospective evidence from the Tecumseh Community Health Study. Am J Epidemiol 1982; 116: 123-140. PubMed
18 Strawbridge WJ, Cohen RD, Shema SJ, Kaplan GA. Frequent attendance at religious services and mortality over 28 years. AJPH 1997; 87: 957-961. PubMed
19 Idler EL, Kasl SV. Religion among disabled and nondisabled persons II: Attendance at religious services as a predictor of the course of disability. J Gerontol 1997; 52B: S306-S316. PubMed
20 Idler EL, Kasl SV. Religion, disability, depression, and the timing of death. Am J Sociol 1992; 97: 1052-1079. CrossRef | PubMed
21 Zuckerman DM, Kasl SV, Ostfeld AM. Psychosocial predictors of mortality among the elderly poor. Am J Epidemiol 1984; 119: 410-423. PubMed
22 Pressman P, Lyons JS, Larson DB, Strain JJ. Religious belief, depression and ambulation status in elderly women with broken hips. Am J Psychiatry 1990; 147: 758-760. PubMed
23 Comstock GW, Partidge KB. Church attendance and health. J Chronic Dis 1972; 225: 665-672. PubMed
24 Comstock GW, Tonascia JA. Education and mortality in Washington County, Maryland. J Health Soc Behav 1977; 18: 54-61. CrossRef | PubMed
25 Colantonio A, Kask SV, Ostfeld AM. Depressive symptoms and other psychosocial factors as predictors of stroke in the elderly. Am J Epidemiol 1992; 136: 884-894. PubMed
26 Koenig HG. Is religion good for your health?. Binghamton, NY: Haworth Pastoral Press, 1997.
27 Levin JS. Religion and health: is there an association, is it valid, and is it causal?. Soc Sci Med 1994; 38: 1475-1482. CrossRef | PubMed
28 Levin JS, Vanderpool HY. Is frequent religious attendance really conducive to better health?: toward an epidemiology of religion. Soc Sci Med 1987; 24: 589-600. CrossRef | PubMed
29 Walden RT, Schaefer LE, Lemon FR, Sunshine A, Wynder EL. Effect of environment on the serum cholesterol-triglyceride distribution among Seventh-day Adventists. Am J Med 1964; 36: 269-276. CrossRef | PubMed
30 Rasanen J, Kauhanen J, Lakka TA, Kaplan GA, Salonen JT. Religious affiliation and all-cause mortality: a prospective population study in middle-aged men in eastern Finland. Int J Epidemiol 1996; 25: 1244-1249. CrossRef | PubMed
31 Lyon JL, Gardner K, Gress RE. Cancer incidence among Mormons and non-Mormons in Utah (United States) 1971—85. Cancer Causes Control 1994; 5: 149-156. CrossRef | PubMed
32 Koenig HG, Cohen HG, George LK, Hays JC, Larson DB, Blazer DG. Attendance at religious services, interleukin-6, and other biological parameters of immune function in older adults. Int J Psychiatry Med 1997; 27: 233-250. PubMed
33 Levin JS, Lyons JS, Larson DB. Prayer and health during pregnancy: Findings from the Galveston Low birthweight Survey. Southern Med J 1993; 86: 1022-1027. PubMed
34 Byrd RC. Positive therapeutic effects of intercessory prayer in a coronary care unit population. Southern Med J 1988; 81: 826-829. PubMed
35 Oxman TE, Freeman DH, Manheimer ED. Lack of social participation or religious strength and comfort as risk factors after cardiac surgery in the elderly. Psychosomatic Med 1995; 57: 5-15. PubMed
37 Gould SJ. The mismeasure of man. New York: Norton, 1981.
38 Powell T. Regligion, race, and reason. J Clin Ethics 1995; 6: 73-77. PubMed
Uncited references
36 Sorlie PD, Backlund E, Keller JB. US mortality by economic, demographic, and social characteristics: the National Longitudinal Mortality Study. AJPH 1995; 85: 949-956. PubMed
39 Prager K. For everything a blessing. JAMA 1997; 277: 1589. PubMed
a Behavioral Medicine Program, Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center, New York NY 10032, USA
b Department of Psychiatry, Columbia University, New York NY 10032, USA
c New York State Psychiatric Institute, New York NY 10032, USA
d Division of Biostatistics, School of Public Health, Columbia University, New York NY 10032
e Center for the Study of Society and Medicine, Columbia University, New York NY 10032, USA
Corresponding Author Information Correspondence to: Dr Richard P Sloan, Columbia University, Box 427, 622 West 168th St, New York 10032

The Lancet, Volume 353, Issue 9153, Pages 664 - 667, 20 February 1999

http://www.routledgementalhealth.com/9780789028662" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:20 am
by Ex_muslimah
I also found this article as well

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pdf/lawrence.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:09 pm
by IoshkaFutz
Hank Palooka wrote:
IoshkaFutz wrote:Would you like me to pray for you?
(Yes, thank you Sister / No thank you sister)
(Is oppression)

...was ordered to attend an equality course...
(is not oppression)

I think more surveillance cameras might be required.

There are many instances when not even Islam is as stupid, dogmatic, inhuman as atheism

This is not atheism. This is down right stupidity. Let's be clear on that.
Ciao Hank,

A belated welcome to the Forum and sorry for the late response (presently working my butt off).

Nothing in the moral realm is Atheistic. "Let there be no compulsions OR compunctions" and this is the great limit of Atheism. Certainly prohibiting a private offer of prayer-giving is NOT UNatheistic.

Your more militant confreres on this thread even think - along with the State Regime presently in force in once Merry England - that she should be sacked.

Her JOB is this and the other. On the Job she is entirely her JOB and nothing but her Job, ergo, the little Robotnicka crossed the line.

Perfectly rational.

And if a visiting doctor who's also a mountain climber should promise to shout the sick person's name from the tippy top of Mt. Everest, he too should be sacked.

As the professionals are their JOBS, so the sick person is his pathology. And anything whatsoever that crosses these clearcut lines calls for immediate action.

If the sick person asks the nurse to sing "Me and Mrs. Jones have a thing going on" she should instantly be removed for offending the professionalism of the staff. It's of the utmost importance that nothing human, personal, emotional, unprofessional take place from either side.

'Cause the people in charge - mostly atheists - have it figured out. While Dr. Killmoose is singing "Me and Mrs. Mrs. Jones Mrs. Jones Mrs. Jones" someone in the next ward has 10000000000 germs that need to be subdued. And time is money and money comes from the Kollektive.

It's not stupid... it's all done with a reason, on a timetable, with a budget and for a purpose... unlike the flowers that a wellwisher might bring. Come to think of it, those flowers are absolutely wrong! They've been cut and are doomed.

UK has been cut too.

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:15 pm
by Lyzandra Daria
Has the efficacy of prayer been proved? Not yet, right?

No proof that (insert deity of choice here) responds to prayers for healing. Sack her superstitious dumb butt...and let her try to petition the courts for redress or she can pray...VERY LOUDLY.

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:59 pm
by IoshkaFutz
Once again you see the totalitarian instincts of militant atheism. God doesn't exist, nothing is proven - so they say - and so it must be forbidden in the workplace (work being all that's sacred). The nurse is ONLY nurse, and must be as concentrated as a Formula One racer in front of a chicane. Everything said and done must be entirely focused. Even a "Good morning" might be dangerous. Why "good"... what proof is there that it is "good"... Has the efficacy of "good morning" been proved?

These people live in a Twilight Zone of proof and efficacy even in hospitals where patients might need and even crave the attention or might fear death or be hoping in a miracle. They've created a cold world of fear and surveillance equipment, of political correctness. They are cranks and prigs... measuring everything that is said and done against their checklists of proof, efficacy and egalitarianism, while all around them the world is literally going to pot.

Beware of the Ideology-bots. They'll send you to sensitivity school! Oh but see how sensitive they really are:

"Sack her superstitious dumb butt...and let her try to petition the courts for redress or she can pray...VERY LOUDLY."

"She should be sacked for life."

Yes, a little time at the Athiest sensitivity school is just what the doctor ordered

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Sun Feb 08, 2009 11:49 pm
by Mindstorm

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:45 am
by Aksel Ankersen
The great-grandmother told the Mail last night: 'It didn't worry me, it just struck me as a strange thing for a nurse to do. She finished dressing my legs and before she left the last thing she asked was would you like me to say a prayer for you? I said "no thank you" and then she went.

'It was the first time I'd seen her. She was a nice lady, did the job properly and was quietly spoken. Personally I wouldn't want to see her sacked for something like that.

...

The next day the mother of two, of Weston-Super-Mare, north Somerset, received a message on her home phone from her co-ordinator telling her that disciplinary action would be taken. She was then suspended.
I can't believe the atheists of FFI are defending this crazy decision.

Here's a question dear atheists: If you were a nurse, a patient asked you to pray for them, and you refused... Do you deserve to be fired?

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:08 pm
by Chiclets
Lyzandra Daria wrote:Has the efficacy of prayer been proved? Not yet, right?

No proof that (insert deity of choice here) responds to prayers for healing. Sack her superstitious dumb butt...and let her try to petition the courts for redress or she can pray...VERY LOUDLY.
Image
:lotpot:

Re: Persecuted for praying

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:26 am
by IoshkaFutz
Aksel Ankersen wrote:
The great-grandmother told the Mail last night: 'It didn't worry me, it just struck me as a strange thing for a nurse to do. She finished dressing my legs and before she left the last thing she asked was would you like me to say a prayer for you? I said "no thank you" and then she went.

'It was the first time I'd seen her. She was a nice lady, did the job properly and was quietly spoken. Personally I wouldn't want to see her sacked for something like that.

...

The next day the mother of two, of Weston-Super-Mare, north Somerset, received a message on her home phone from her co-ordinator telling her that disciplinary action would be taken. She was then suspended.
I can't believe the atheists of FFI are defending this crazy decision.

Here's a question dear atheists: If you were a nurse, a patient asked you to pray for them, and you refused... Do you deserve to be fired?

Ciao Aksel.

It's highly believable and a religion in its own right. The key - IMHO - is the sacredness of the work place and people being defined as their jobs (and in the case of hospital patients, their pathologies). Homo Economicus.

God, prayer, and personal care are to them what pork is to Muslims. The reaction is swift, cruel and unyielding. The Islamic All-God and the militant atheist's No-God are strikingly similar. Notice the draconian punishment. It's Atheist Sharia. There is no God but Allah, has been handily replaced by there is No God but No-God. Allah being a No-God, left entirely to the whim of man (conflicting verses, hinky language, self-apointed Imams), the only real difference is the source of those whims (in the case of UK and other countries a strange mix of Calvinism, Gramsci, 60s and 70s suicidal culture). Of the two Islam is stronger and destined to prevail upon the other.

There are more laws and more invasive laws than ever before. A clear indication of a religious drive. The surfeit of surveillance cameras are like the legions of morality guards in certain Islamic countries. The citizen belongs entirely to the state just as a Muslim belongs to Allah. Lines which were once simply not there and left to the free reign of the people, are now clearly marked. A world of Haram, Halal and tolerated as opposed to culture.

The nurse was in their eyes "proselytizing", in other words she was like a preacher in Saudi Arabia, a place where only Allah is permitted. In the public spaces only the No-God God of the atheists is allowed. It's all quite similar and that (along with a strong urge for suicidal self-loathing) is why these Atheists are really little more than the useful idiots of the Islamists.

Had she been of another, non-Christian faith, the whim-driven, politically correct, suicidally self-loathing laws would have protected her. Her rights would have had ascendency. What is really on the minds of the militant atheists is to break down Christianity and the remnants of local culture. They've turned something that could have been handled perfectly well by the persons directly involved into a matter of ideological grievance. It's time for the Atheist version of Ask-the-Imam.

With such an anti-culture taking hold, the Muslims need only sit back and watch. All the work of making the void is being done for them.